Season 1 - Episode 17 - Duck's Top 10 toughest footballers since his debut in 1989

Season 1 - Episode 17 - Duck's Top 10 toughest footballers since his debut in 1989.

Join Wayne Carey and Ayrton Woolley as they jump into episode 16 of the show.

Hear Wayne & Ayrton talk about the King's top 10 toughest footballer sin his opinion since his debut in 1989.  Who made the list, who made the cut, do you agree with his top 10?  Join the conversation now.

Starting with Garry Hocking, Whiskers - Geelong Cats at number 10, who made it all the way to number 1?

Who could it be.........? Listen to the episode to hear who came in at No. 1

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Ayrton: Well we're back again for another episode of The Truth Hurts, a bonus episode on the toughest 10 players that you've seen in your time in football, Duck. Now that began in 1989, so we're going from then up until the present day. I'm interested how you're judging this because there's a lot of different ways you can judge your toughest 10.

[00:00:19] Wayne: Players. Yeah. There, there's, well, for me, there's certain criteria because there's a lot of players that, uh, I've seen and played against that are intimidating. So they're the ones that are, they're the ones that are handing the punishment out to others, and they're the ones, and they're the reasons why the toughest players that I've picked, they've gen generally standing in front of those guys are being hit by the guys that I mentioned.

[00:00:44] Wayne: You know, you obviously talk about guys like Tony Lockett. One of the most intimidating, uh, players I think, you know, the game has seen, well that I've seen and, you know, so many players that play around him and, and had to go back into the hole in front of him certainly, [00:01:00] uh, knew that he was there. So, he, he's intimidating but, and obviously kept his eye on the ball and he's, he's tough but, um, not in the manner, because he was one, Uh, dishing it out, not necessarily taking it, and Gary Ablett Senior, um, So he was, 

[00:01:16] Ayrton: he was hard, wasn't he?

[00:01:17] Ayrton: He could hit you, couldn't he, 

[00:01:18] Wayne: Gary? Oh, well, Gary, You know, concussion's a big thing in football. I think Gary gave out more concussions than just about any other key forward. And McPlugger gave out a few too. But those two were extremely intimidating. I think, I think of John Worsfold, um, who was, you know, he was uncompromising.

[00:01:39] Wayne: He was, he was tough and hard. And, um, you always knew. where he was, or you always wanted to know where he was because he had a great ability of, you know, picking you off or, or timing, you know, a bump at the right time. And they, yeah, I, I, so I, I rate him very highly, but you know, not in the category of [00:02:00] my 10 that I'll, I'll come up with.

[00:02:02] Wayne: Clearly Derm, Dermy was, uh, Dermy was super tough for a number of reasons. He dished it out Dermy, but he also, he also copped it. Um, and he had a, he had. You know, he had presence. Just like the other guys I mentioned, he had intimidation, but just because I saw more the end of his career, so he was probably more in the 80s, uh, Mark Harvey was, was, uh, he was tough.

[00:02:28] Wayne: So there's, I've got plenty of players, you know, I think of Gavin Wanganeen, how, how tough he was. You know, for his body size. Mark Rusciuto that I played with at the Adelaide Crows. But as you can imagine, none of these players are in my top ten. Aaron Hamill. I don't know whether, I don't know whether you saw a lot of Aaron Hamill.

[00:02:48] Wayne: But he was a player that, um, I thought was incredibly tough. Always kept his eyes on it. Was, uh, was really hard. Uh, a couple of other players that I played with. Anthony Stephens [00:03:00] was... He was, he was as hard as a cat's head, as they say. He, he just attacked the footy. Um, he was, he was as tough as, just about as tough as anyone, but didn't quite make the top ten.

[00:03:12] Wayne: There's a lot of names, 

[00:03:13] Ayrton: isn't there? Because, you know, we've had a good discussion about this, and there's 40, 50 players that you've got to whittle 

[00:03:18] Wayne: down to. There's Greg Williams. Super tough. Like, you know, head over it, tagged every week, you know, had taggers, you know, denim and these guys just, you know, but, but he would dish a bit out, but he also, uh, copped a fair bit.

[00:03:33] Wayne: And one, one other guy that, um, I played with for a short amount of time, but against, and just put himself, I, I thought a lot of times he just had dumb courage. And there is such thing as dumb courage. And, and, and Lee Colbert, who's an absolute ripper. He had some, you know, at times he went, he went back into packs.

[00:03:55] Wayne: And John O'Brien had a little bit of that later. Like he just, he put [00:04:00] himself in positions where he wasn't going to impact the footy and ended up getting, you know, a couple of, uh, serious, uh, knocks. He lost 

[00:04:08] Ayrton: his teeth one day, didn't he, going back with the flight? 

[00:04:10] Wayne: Yeah, and, and was never going to get anywhere near the footy.

[00:04:14] Wayne: He basically just ran into a pack for the sake of running into a pack. So, you know, there's, there's so many names that, you know, you know, then you had, uh, the great Essendon teams. Of the nineties, and they had guys, they had guys like, uh, you know, dimmer Hardwick, Wallace Barna, 

[00:04:31] Ayrton: Western in 2000, Solomon. That back line was a, I thought was a, was a hard back line.

[00:04:36] Ayrton: Oh, there was 

[00:04:36] Wayne: a bit of fakeness in it. you go. There was no, well, that, well, dimmer wasn't, Like, he was, he kept his eye on the, like, what I mean by tough, not intimidating. Yeah, okay. And I think, you know, Big Wally tried to be intimidating. I, well, I didn't find him intimidating, but he might have intimidated others.

[00:04:56] Wayne: And Dimmer Hardwick probably intimidated a couple of smaller forwards as [00:05:00] well. Dean Solomon, Mark Johnson. Yeah, and they were, and you know what? They were hard. They all kept their eyes on the footy. There's no doubt about that. And they were, uh, but I didn't find the bomber boys all that intimidating. And then, and then you had the two Scott boys.

[00:05:16] Wayne: They thought they were tough. And no, they, not, well, toughness and intimidation, uh, two different things. And like I said, Plugger and Ablett, they had genuine toughness, but also intimidation. And like, I assume the Scott boys did intimidate, um, some 

[00:05:35] Ayrton: players. There was, uh, in my life growing up, I mean, I probably saw less of the guys that you saw in the early 90s.

[00:05:42] Ayrton: The first one that I actually saw who was a, a one time VFL, AFL player, Uh, played footy in Devonport where I grew up was Wayne Wiedemann. He had the long hair. He, he was, he was a wild man, the weed. So, I want, I wanted to be able 

[00:05:55] Wayne: to cross paths with you. He probably, he probably scared, he scared a few of the weed.

[00:05:58] Wayne: I, I do [00:06:00] remember, um, getting reported against the Crows. I don't know who or what I did. But I remember the runner coming out and saying to the weed. Knock his head off, saying knock my head off. Or, and he might have even said, and this is the runner saying this to the weed, actually kick it off, is what he said.

[00:06:20] Wayne: So I don't know whether weed did kung fu or what he did but, Um, yeah, I remember that message specifically coming out to the weed to do that. So, he would have intimidated a couple just because of, you know, the wild man look and, you know, people like to noddy and, I'll tell you who was, intimidating and you always knew that he was there.

[00:06:43] Wayne: Ross Lyon. He's got that 

[00:06:45] Ayrton: about him, Ross, doesn't he? And just even in his manner, you feel like he's got that ruthless streak. 

[00:06:50] Wayne: Yeah, there's, there was certain. Believe it or not, more so than the players that played centre half back or full back, for mine, there are a lot of those half [00:07:00] back flankers that, you know, you just always, you know, wanted to, uh, Mickey Mansfield had a bit of, a little bit of, yeah, Mickey, you sort of always knew.

[00:07:09] Wayne: They would try to, uh, Chrissie Johnson, another one, that, you know, when he was just in the back pocket, just had a timing, you know, knew how to hit. You know, the player that I played with, Byron Pickett, now, now Byron... His bumps were... Yeah, but his bumps, but the guys that I'm naming are the guys that have their head over the footy, and they're, you know, the likes of Byron are going up, and that's why my 10.

[00:07:35] Wayne: are guys that never took their eyes off it and just put their bodies in harm's way, week in week out, irrespective of whether it was a Brereton, a Lockett, an Ablett, a Byron Pickett, whether they were coming the other way or not, they, they went there and went there consistently without, um, without, well it looked like without fear, but I think we all We [00:08:00] all, um, sometimes poop our pants, but the difference between the ones that, um, continually go there, they, they can still execute under that, under those thoughts.

[00:08:11] Wayne: Even know, even knowing that they're about to be hurt. Before 

[00:08:15] Ayrton: we go on to you Tim, I do want to speak about that, um, in terms of what it, what it does, I mean people who play footy even at a local level will know this feeling when you're backing back. And you know that there's something coming from behind.

[00:08:30] Ayrton: I wonder for you, because so often, you know, you're backing back into packs, you're going back with the flight. It's instinctive for you though, in that moment, isn't it? 

[00:08:39] Wayne: It is. And like I said, I think the running back with the flight, um, is an interesting one because if you're running back but you've sort of run through the footy that's obviously you're putting yourself in harm's way, way more and we saw you know I remember one particular mark Jonathan Brown took [00:09:00] and there's also we all we all know the Nick Riewoldt mark where he ran back and got flipped over which I thought made it look more spectacular but that you know that was just unbelievably courageous.

[00:09:09] Wayne: John O'Brien did it uh regularly uh but Yeah, well, and I think the thing is, you know that you're going to get hurt, um, but you still go back, um, under those, under those thoughts. And I've asked a couple of, a couple of the people in my top ten, I've spoken about how they, I guess, controlled, um, that fear to never once.

[00:09:37] Wayne: Um, in my time, these players that I've mentioned, um, they, they, they were just consistently, um, tough, like consistently tough and just kept their eyes on it. Were there 

[00:09:48] Ayrton: ever times where you thought a team was, was coming after you and when you think about your own safety? Is it more in retrospect that you think about, geez, I'll, you know, cause you're talking about dumb courage and what situations [00:10:00] you put yourself in.

[00:10:00] Ayrton: Anytime a team's come after you and anytime after the fact you thought, oh geez, that was, you know, you know, I'm pretty close to the line 

[00:10:06] Wayne: there. Um, come after, the only time I remember, um, a team deliberately coming out to try to intimidate. Myself, and I guess being the captain of North Melbourne, then I guess they thought, you know what, well, if we can, you know, get, get Duck a little bit on edge or, or get him off his game, then, you know, that filters through the team.

[00:10:28] Wayne: And it was Essendon, and it was those guys that, I mentioned before, obviously, uh, uh, Wallace, um, you know, Barnard and, and Solomon and these guys. And so there, there was that one particular game where it was, it was as deliberate as anything and they just all came to me at the start of the game and there were bumps and Solomon got reported for kneeing me in the, in the quad, um, you know, so that, that was on 

[00:10:52] Ayrton: early.

[00:10:53] Ayrton: And speaking of Essendon, one bloke who I had written down, he was a, bit, Earlier than these guys, but one I'd [00:11:00] seen highlights of, and I actually, I bumped into him, uh, one day, uh, at a pub just above the MCG, it was after going to the tennis, I'd had a few drinks, so naturally, at that stage you've got your Dutch courage, you go up and have a chat to him, it was Terry Danaher.

[00:11:12] Ayrton: Oh yeah, he's tough. Lovely guy. He's tough. And we'd been talking for about five minutes, and he brought it up unprompted, we started talking about the 1990 Grand Final, and he laid out Gavin. Brown. Uh, he, he didn't mind, he didn't mind having to go, did he, 

[00:11:26] Wayne: did he? No, but he, he, he dished a bit out, but I, when he went back to the Wagga League, he played for the Wagga Tigers, I saw him get hit one day, shirt front, Byron Pickett stole, so this is TD being hit, and everyone just saw it, it was like, I think it was Robbie Ellis it was, from North Wagga that actually delivered it, and you just saw, he, he will not get up, he can't get up.

[00:11:51] Wayne: And he just, he just dusted himself off and said, good hit young fella. And just, and then just jogged off and ran about 20k. So you're right. He [00:12:00] was, and I mentioned Mark Harvey as well. He, he put himself, you know, into situations that, uh, you know, not a lot of players do as well. So I'd mentioned him, but, um, do we want to start at number?

[00:12:12] Wayne: Yeah, let's go number 10. Number 10? Yeah. So, uh, this bloke who won, won, I think he won four BNFs in, in, at a club that, you know, was successful, didn't get the highest reward, but Gary Hocking. Yeah, he, he was genuine. He was tough, tough, hard. Um, the only thing that diminished his toughness is when he slipped down that thing.

[00:12:40] Wayne: It took the shot. He, he was, he was hard. And another one that you, for a midfielder, um, and he, he used to give you a little bit of lip as well. I remember, um, in one of the finals we played against Geelong, he came up to me and said, I heard you were out last weekend, you know, you're going to run out of [00:13:00] puff and, um, you know, he, he didn't mind, um, you know, trying to put you off your game and, and, you know, every little moment he might just run past and give you a little rib tickler.

[00:13:10] Wayne: Um, so, yeah, I, I always admired Budda Hocking and, you know, to, to do that and, you know, against and have a group of superstars, but he, he shone in a, in a team that had, you know, the likes of Couch and Bairstow and obviously Ablett Senior and, and others. So... 

[00:13:28] Ayrton: Hard to believe they didn't get a flag in all of 

[00:13:30] Wayne: those grand...

[00:13:31] Wayne: I know. Cause they, they were, they were a super team and, and he was one of the shining lights in that team. So Budda at number... 10. Righto, so number 

[00:13:39] Ayrton: 9. We've already gone through a good, you know, 20 or 30 names and those were guys who were not in your top 10. So, really interested now who you've got at number 9.

[00:13:48] Ayrton: Uh, 

[00:13:49] Wayne: so much for respect for this guy and I think the whole competition had a respect for this guy. Um, in another club that's unlucky and should have won a premiership because of [00:14:00] this guy. I think he won a Norm Smith in the, in the, uh, drawn grand final. Lenny Hayes. Lenny Hayes, just, you know, how much admiration, um, as a, as an observer, and then how much admiration, you know, like the competition, so his peers, and, and within the four walls of the St Kilda Footy Club, he's just a legend and goes down in folklore, and I also, so I remember Glenn Archer cleaned him up in his first game, and another one of those ones where you think, oh, you know, is he going to get any, and he just bounced up.

[00:14:34] Wayne: Just, you know, got up, dusted himself off, and, and on with the rest of the game. So, two midfielders, um, definitely. And a 

[00:14:43] Ayrton: mix already of, you've got one from the 90s and one from the, the more 2000s, 2000s. So I'm, that's, I'm interested about your mix, because footy's very different now. Uh, to what it was in the 90s and the 80s and when you were, you were playing the mid 90s obviously mainly, but, uh, [00:15:00] maybe more situations that you could get hurt back then than now.

[00:15:02] Wayne: Yeah, correct. So I think when you, if you keep your eyes on the footy or you're bent over the footy now, you sort of, well you pretty much know that you're not going to be, be hurt. And if you are, then the guy's going to get worked, so it doesn't happen as much. Now, do you still have collisions, and it's still courageous?

[00:15:18] Wayne: You know, the backing back into a pack when you don't know what's behind you, that's, that's, you know, that's one of the more courageous. But the next, the next guy is a current day player, and 

[00:15:30] Ayrton: a You're only current day player, is 

[00:15:32] Wayne: that right? Is that your Um, yes, he is. He is the only one, uh, playing still.

[00:15:38] Wayne: Yeah, so it's a big rap. Yep. Paddy Dangerfield, and some people might be, well they won't be surprised that he's in my top 10 tougher, like, but he, he, He's a tack and he's, the way he goes after the ball, on the ground, in the air, um, we know what he did on the weekend, played through injury, and I know some [00:16:00] people, you know, think that, you know, I remember that Hawthorne game where people, he came off and everyone thought he had.

[00:16:07] Wayne: You know, half a leg and half, half and half or and kicked five or whatever. Came back on and kicked five. There's, you know, there's theatre in some of the stuff that, uh, Paddy's. But, you know, he's, he's relentless when he's on in and around the footy and, you know, to one contest to the next, to the next, to the next.

[00:16:24] Wayne: So, I've always admired it and, and similar attack on the footy to, Some of the guys that I have, uh, closer to the top of my list, so. How, 

[00:16:34] Ayrton: how interesting for Paddy. And it's kind of funny in a way because you have been thinking about this for some time and you'd settled on your top ten. And then he, and Paddy might have been even more surprising to some people before that moment against Port Adelaide.

[00:16:47] Ayrton: He comes out, he gets hit. He has a broken rib, a, um, a punctured lung, or a deflated lung, or whatever it was, and he, you know, he's off to hospital after the game, but he, he played the game out. So, although there is some theatre [00:17:00] with some of those moments there, like, that is, that is tough. Because that's pain, isn't it?

[00:17:04] Ayrton: I mean, you, you've probably got, you know, some sort of, 

[00:17:06] Wayne: you know. Oh, the most famous one is, uh, and I've failed to mention him, actually, but the Big Dipper. You know, standing in front of Gary Ablett in the 89 grand final, playing through that pain. Dipper dished out a few, uh, He, he, he had a bit of, he would have been, uh, intimidating in his, in his prime, the big Dipper.

[00:17:23] Wayne: On a wing, just prowling out there. But he, he dished out a fair bit, but that was courageous. So just like Paddy Dangerfield. Next one is... So number 

[00:17:32] Ayrton: 7 

[00:17:33] Wayne: we're up to now. Number 7? Yep. Is 

[00:17:36] Ayrton: that right? It should be right, yep. Number 7. 

[00:17:38] Wayne: So... John O'Brien. He's seven. Yep. Um, okay. Unbelievably, uh, courageous. Um, obviously, you know, running back with the flight, uh, stood under the footy.

[00:17:54] Wayne: Yeah, just half hard. He, he, all of these guys, if you were going, if you're going into battle, [00:18:00] you would want to be behind every single one of these guys. You'd want all of these guys around you. And, uh, and Big Jono Brown would be, uh, certainly one of those. So the 

[00:18:12] Ayrton: only thing, uh, where people may have some surprise with Jonathan Brown is, is that he's not higher than number seven.

[00:18:18] Ayrton: So how, how much did you toy with having him higher in this, in this list that you've got? Well, when 

[00:18:22] Wayne: you, when you get the rest of the list, uh, Anton, you'll, uh, you'll, uh, know that, you know, it's, it's, it's a tough list. I mean, all the guys that I've, you heard the guys I've, Um, left out. And, and, and by the way, this will, this will, uh, I assume there'll be a lot of people that don't agree with, um, a lot of my choices here because there are so many more and, and other players have seen more of players.

[00:18:47] Wayne: But this is who I've seen and, and think. So, John O'Brien, um, definitely deserves to be in the top ten. Maybe a little bit, uh, maybe a little bit higher in some people, but, um, [00:19:00] he should be happy he's there. Well, it should be a good top six then. James Heard, um, underrated, underrated toughness. He, he always had his eyes on the footy, Heardy.

[00:19:12] Wayne: And I, I admired the way he attacked the ball. Could obviously play anywhere. Um, you know, I think, I think, the way he kept his eye on the ball all the time. And I can't ever remember him taking his eyes off it, um, when he's gone into, into packs, or backing back into packs, or running back with a flight, or whatever it may be.

[00:19:36] Wayne: And also the courage. You know, also the, you know, a lot of these guys could grab a game by the scruff of the neck too, or do something heroic to get their team over the line. And when I think of Hurdy, I think he can... 

[00:19:49] Ayrton: He would inject himself into the, he'd go from half forward, he'd put himself on the ball, or he also had one of the most horrific injuries, didn't he?

[00:19:55] Ayrton: Yes, correct. When he, I think, ran into the knee of Mark McVay and had the plates in his face. [00:20:00] Yeah, well I think 

[00:20:00] Wayne: between John O'Brien and Hurdy, they've... They've, they've got that covered. I mean, Brownies, you know, um, some of his injuries, you know, towards the end were, you know, car crash sort of stuff. So that tells you how courageous they are.

[00:20:13] Wayne: So, Hurdy. Guy that, uh, played a fair bit against and, um, had so much admiration for and played for the Pies. And I know all Pies fans will agree with this. Gavin Brown. 

[00:20:30] Ayrton: Yeah, okay, so I didn't see as much of Gavin Brown in my football viewing because, you know, I'm obviously a fair bit younger than you, you're an old man.

[00:20:36] Ayrton: But, um, 

[00:20:36] Wayne: He was, he was, um, you know, talk about respect, you know, played tall, could play on ball, half back, played centre half back, um, on me a couple of times, you know, I played it full forward, but he's, his courage was, you know, huge. I think it's the Bob Rose, um, most courageous award for the AFL Plays [00:21:00] Association.

[00:21:00] Wayne: And, um, he's won it, he won it numerous times. Um, so yeah, he was a, he was a, he was a superstar. Gavin Brown doesn't get the, doesn't get the accolades that, um, probably others. I think we forget very quickly just how good he was. 

[00:21:20] Ayrton: So Gavin Brown number 5, so you've got Hocking 10, Lenny Hayes 9, Patrick Dangerfield 8, Jonathan Brown 7, James Surd 6, Gavin Brown 5.

[00:21:30] Ayrton: So now we're getting into the real, your real toughest of the tough. Yep, 

[00:21:35] Wayne: well, 3 time Premiership Captain, um, Michael Voss. He was, you know, like the others that I've mentioned, I just can't remember him, um, you know, taking his eyes, he dished a bit out to the, that hit on Richardson, um, Alan Richardson, Alan Richardson on the wing and you wouldn't believe it, sitting right on the boundary in that [00:22:00] vision is none other than the King.

[00:22:02] Wayne: Not me. Wally Lewis. Oh, Wally's there. Wally Lewis was just, He would have loved it, Wally. sitting right there when that, when that, uh, bump, whilst he put that bump on. Cause he was an amb, 

[00:22:13] Ayrton: he was doing, um, Friday Night Footy or something for Channel 7. He was doing 

[00:22:17] Wayne: The Boundary. I don't, yeah, I'm not sure what the King was doing there, but, um, it was, That was brutal, but you know, that's dishing it out, but he was, he was on the receiving end, he just had, he had, he had presence too, for a midfielder, could grab a game by the scruff, um, you know, win a game, you know, when you, you have so much admiration for him, and when you, when you go through these guys, by the way, they've all been what, they've all been leaders, most of these guys, if you haven't noticed, um, Anton.

[00:22:52] Wayne: So, uh, Michael Voss, um, I don't think anyone will disagree with that. Interestingly, 

[00:22:58] Ayrton: and just after [00:23:00] you spoke about the AFLPA's most courageous, I just thought I'd get up and 2001.

[00:23:09] Ayrton: But that's because some of the guys you've already mentioned, uh, feature heavily and some of the guys, I assume you're about to mention, just Gavin Brown. I'm looking at here, one in 91 92, Gavin Wne, who's not in your top 10. He, he got it in 1993. I won't mention a few of the others who are come, who are potentially coming up Voss in 2001.

[00:23:28] Ayrton: Um, but some names quite a few times. Brownie was oh 7 0 8 20 11. So three times 

[00:23:36] Wayne: three time voted by his peers. Yes. Yeah, most courageous player in the competition. There you go so Michael Voss and at number three a guy that's just recently retired and the longest serving captain in the history of the game none other than The great Joel Selwood.

[00:23:57] Wayne: And, you know, I don't know why, [00:24:00] but he had his, he's got his detractors because they, you know, people say that he, you know, rolled his shoulder and got all these free kicks. Don't worry about that. This bloke never shirked an issue. You know when when they put up the statue of him outside Kadynia Park I just want him to have a bandage around his head because he spent more time He spent more time getting patched up.

[00:24:23] Wayne: Always have a bit of clout wouldn't he Joe. Just about any other player in the comp and You know to play the longevity so there's toughness and and all of these guys by the way played You know a lot of footy Um, so there's an element of toughness even about that, to get yourself up and, you know, and, and he's just, yeah, so much admiration for him.

[00:24:44] Wayne: The way, the way he holds himself for a, for, not a, a big man of, you know, big man in terms of, uh, physique, he, he had presence and, you know, you just, you Selwood led. [00:25:00] Um, them onto the ground knowing that he was prepared to do anything for, for the team. And no wonder that, that Geelong have been such a great club for a long time, but based on the back of, you know, his leadership and, um, 

[00:25:16] Ayrton: and what effect that might've had on them this year, potentially being without 

[00:25:20] Wayne: him.

[00:25:20] Wayne: Yep. So he always had a bit of a man crush on, on Joel. Uh, so he comes in at number three. 

[00:25:27] Ayrton: So now we're going to enter the top two of your toughest players you've seen in your time in football. Who have we got at 

[00:25:33] Wayne: number two? Yeah, and I drove past his farm on the weekend in Wagga Wagga. None other than the great Paul Kelly.

[00:25:42] Wayne: He was, so Joel, you know, just a lot of these guys, obviously similar, um, clearly similar attributes. The main one, um, never, never shirked an issue. Um, Tony Lockett, all the other Sydney players that I've, um, [00:26:00] spoken to over the years have all said that the one player they admire more than any other at that footy club is they just, it automatically goes to the top of the list and it's always Paul Kelly.

[00:26:11] Ayrton: There's just this ferocity about 

[00:26:12] his 

[00:26:13] Wayne: play, didn't he? Well he had, he had real speed. Like, you know, he could go from, you know, zero to a, to a hundred very quickly. And, and so, with that speed, um, you know, just, just hit the footy. And, you know, hit the footy when, you know, there was a steam train coming the other way.

[00:26:30] Wayne: And that's the thing about all of these, all of these players. Like, they've, they've been in that many situations, all of them, where they know that a steam train and a plane... Uh, and a truck are all coming at them in different directions and they've just got one focus. And that's why these guys are in here and some of them, the intimidating, these, these guys knew the consequences and they followed through with the act.

[00:26:58] Wayne: And Paul Kelly, [00:27:00] um, comfortably sits in, uh, in at number two. So 

[00:27:05] Ayrton: we've counted down from 10 to 2 and a little drum roll for your number one. It's it's probably no surprise No, North Melbourne players perhaps up until 

[00:27:15] Wayne: now. Yeah. Well, hey, I Played with this guy. So I got to say it every week And others got to know it And you only have to go to, you know, you only have to go to Tony Lockett in the, uh, in the 96 grand final.

[00:27:32] Wayne: And this bloke, well none other than Glenn Archer. Um, you know, I've never seen, he's attack on the footy, on the ground, in the air, in particular going, um, back. Not with the flight, but backing back into holes where these forwards were coming out and, and more than happy to absolutely, you know, um, knock you into next week.

[00:27:55] Wayne: He, he just never, ever, um, shirked an issue. And I, I remember Dennis Pagan, [00:28:00] um, gave us a talk one day and he talked about courage. He said, you know what boys, there's three types of courage. There's Dutch courage. And that's when you're affected by. Uh, a particular substance, um, and so, you know, a lot of people, um, can be tough, um, in that situation.

[00:28:22] Wayne: And, you know, we've, we've seen plenty of people get tougher after a couple of beers, haven't we? Absolutely. I've got a couple of mates back in the day that got a lot tougher after, so he used to say, he said, there's Dutch courage. And he said, there's expected courage, and that's, that's the peer group pressure.

[00:28:40] Wayne: So, you know, you're expected to do it, so you, you do it, you do it because of that, that, that, that peer group. Um, and, you know, and that's not, that's not a bad type of courage. Um, but, I guess at times you, you know, I guess if you haven't, uh, got those peers around you, would you still [00:29:00] follow through with the act?

[00:29:00] Wayne: And then he said, There's another type, resolve courage. And that's knowing the consequences, but still following through with the act. And he said, what type of courage do you boys want? And I remember we all sat there and I think I might have said to a teammate, well you got plenty of that, the Dutch one.

[00:29:19] Wayne: But there was one bloke in the room that I think typified that more than anyone, the resolve courage that is in um, 

[00:29:27] Ayrton: uh. So tell me a little bit about him as a player. I mean we've, we've seen The highlights. But Glenn, he was not a overly tall guy. No. You wouldn't, he wasn't hugely, you know, fast or anything like that.

[00:29:38] Ayrton: Oh, he was powerful. 

[00:29:39] Wayne: He was powerful. Yeah, he was quick. Oh, he was quick off the mark. 

[00:29:42] Ayrton: But I guess when you look at his attributes, he, without his courage, he's, he's not, he, he can not be the player he was at all. That was, that was, it's. Oh, that's, that's what made. That was his defining 

[00:29:54] Wayne: feature, I guess is what I.

[00:29:55] Wayne: Oh, 100% it was. He wasn't, he didn't get a stack of the [00:30:00] footies. He wasn't a, Uh, I don't think he won a Best and Fairest, he, you know, came, I think he might have come runner up or third in one of the Best and Fairest. So, always, you know, always so consistent. First pick, like I said, you know, if you're going to go into battle, he'd be the first one you'd want to go, uh, in with.

[00:30:18] Wayne: You know, I, I used to often say, early in his career, because he was a forward, he could play forward as well, people forget how good a mark, he was a really good mark three size, and obviously courageous mark three size, but just like Dangerfield, the way they hunt, the way Arch hunted the ball in and around traffic, um, you know, with, with complete disregard to his Um, you know, to his own body, um, you know, he was, he was as tough as they come.

[00:30:47] Wayne: And I, I used to often say to reporters when he wasn't getting, you know, getting the accolades that I thought he deserved, I used to say, is anyone sitting up taking notice of this bloke? You know, he's, he's, you know, just [00:31:00] relentless. And I don't know how many times he won the, uh, the... Yeah, 

[00:31:03] Ayrton: so he, he holds the record, Glenn Archer, for the, um, the AFL PA's most courageous.

[00:31:08] Ayrton: So he has won it. Paul Kelly, who you had in second, was with five. So Arch has got the most. Um, yeah, dominated that award when he was, when he was playing. Um, and yeah, you, you, I'm interested in, you know, you've played through injury. Arch would have put himself in a situation of being injured. You know, he saw danger with, you know, broken ribs.

[00:31:32] Ayrton: I just wondered if you got any... You know, stories of, of times where he shouldn't have been playing and he's 

[00:31:37] Wayne: just... Oh, there would have been, there would have been stacks of times where he's carried injuries in, in the games. Just like, like I've, I've said previously, there's plenty of players that, that do that.

[00:31:48] Wayne: Yeah, but he just consistently, like, like I said, all of those ten, and you could, you could juggle that order around or, you know, like some of the guys I mentioned before, you could, you could bring in and you might take one or two [00:32:00] out, it's, it's an opinion, um, but those guys just, just, you know, all, all had eyes for the ball, that's, their eyes never deviated from the ball, that was their primary focus.

[00:32:16] Wayne: Not worried about anything else. So that's, that's what typifies that, that group and, you know, toughness isn't about whacking someone. Toughest, the toughest thing in footy is about keeping your eye on it. And they all did that. And Arch, uh, well I got to see it, uh, more regularly than anyone else. So Arch typified that.

[00:32:39] Ayrton: I'm going to stitch up to finish the program, to finish on a lighter note. When we first discussed this as a potential topic, your 10 toughest players and your time in footy, you showed me a clip from YouTube. You got out and you said, have a look, have a look at this clip. And I thought you were going to show me a clip of Arch or...

[00:32:53] Ayrton: Show me a clip of Vossi or Hurd or something like that. It was you running through Dean 

[00:32:57] Wayne: Rice. [00:33:00] Oh, no. That wasn't tough. That wasn't tough. That was... Good way to end this. No, I actually put that up on my Twitter during the week because of all these players getting rubbed out for... Someone had sent it to me.

[00:33:17] Wayne: David King had actually sent it to me. So, I just sort of wonder what I'd get, what you would get for that. For those who haven't 

[00:33:25] Ayrton: sent it, you marked 

[00:33:26] Wayne: the football. I marked the football at the same time. By the way, very courageous from Dean Rice. I was going to say from Dean Rice. He was, actually he was a courageous player, Dean Rice.

[00:33:39] Wayne: But that was courage. Um, I assume he knew that I was, um, coming up to the footy. So to put himself in, in that situation, that's, that's, that's what we're talking about. And that's what all of these guys did. Um, so there you go. There's the top ten. So I'm ready for the, for the feedback about it. I'd like a lot of feedback about it and throw up [00:34:00] some names if, you know, the players I've left out.

[00:34:02] Wayne: And, you know, whether, you know, someone in my top ten you think's lucky to be there. But, uh, I don't think anyone can argue that those players. One of those players shouldn't be in the conversation. Um, and some should, in other people's opinion, some should be higher, some should be maybe a bit lower, but, um, there you go.

[00:34:22] Wayne: That's my 10. 

[00:34:24] Ayrton: Fascinating insight, Duck, as always. For those who do want to give some feedback, you can do it on Twitter. You can do it on Instagram. You can do it on Spotify or YouTube. The truth hurts Wayne Carey. Uh, any comments that we like, we'll, we'll play on next week's episode. We'll um, we'll debrief.

[00:34:39] Ayrton: Um, your top three as it was, was Joel Selwood at three, Paul Kelly two, Glenn Archer at one. See you next week, doc. Cheers.