Season 1 - EP #40 - DANI LAIDLEY

Season 1 - EP #40 - DANI LAIDLEY

Duck and Dani wind the clock back and discuss their playing days together and the struggles of hiding behind a mask in public.

produced by TorchT Productions - www.gettorcht.com

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Transcript

[00:00:00] Wayne: Well, we've been saying for a while that we're going to have this, uh, well, I won't say, uh, young anymore, but a lovely young lady, um, come in and join us on the truth hurts. Um, Danielle Lately, it's been, uh, well, we've seen one another a few times over the last couple of years. Thanks for, um, joining me for a chat.

[00:00:19] Wayne: Who would have thought Many years ago we'd be sitting here, um, you know, having, you know, I guess, travelled the road that we've both travelled, and now having this conversation in our current states, and that road that we've walked, both very different, but both had, had its ups and downs. 

[00:00:43] Dani: Um, yeah, it's, um, when you think about it, you know, going back all those years, um, We never had conversations like we will today, um, for lots of different reasons, you know, our age, the [00:01:00] environment that we're in, you know, all those sort of things, um, but if you had have told me, um, 1993 when I walked into the footy club, that we'd be sitting here 30 years later, 30 years, um, you know, and said we were having this conversation, no one would have.

[00:01:18] Dani: In our wildest dreams. I don't think, certainly both of us wouldn't have thought 

[00:01:23] Wayne: that. How, tell me, because I, I'm not going to, by the way, congratulations on the documentary which is on stand. We've spoken about it a couple of times on here. I've watched the whole thing a couple of times and watched a couple of your other interviews.

[00:01:36] Wayne: On the truth hurts, we're not going to delve into a lot of what you spoke about in your documentary because, you know, some of that is well, well known. It certainly is now because I assume it's, um, killing it on the documentary. I hope so. But I want to, yeah, but I want to talk, I want to talk a little bit more about, because I love the fact and, and some of the things that I have heard you say, obviously, clearly you wore a mask [00:02:00] for a long time and, and, and, you know, had to hide who you really were for a long time.

[00:02:05] Wayne: And one of the first shows that I did on this, um, podcast, I, I spoke about, and people were surprised that I, I said I was a really shy, emotional kid, believe it or not, when people say, oh yeah, of course you were Ducky, you were confident as cocky as anyone I've ever met and, and, and, and that's just not true.

[00:02:25] Wayne: My, my childhood was the reason why I had, and, and that was always, that's always, uh, sitting there. And then, you know, then you go out and you put this mask on and this bravado and this shield and this armour and you go out and play footy and everyone goes off, you know, and that's what they automatically think.

[00:02:40] Wayne: Now, you better than anyone knows exactly what that is like. How, how difficult was that? Um, throughout, like you said, we, we've known one another since 93. Yeah. So from the, from 93 and I, and obviously you, you, you were doing the same thing through your childhood and, and, and then when you were at West Coast, but the [00:03:00] time we've known one another.

[00:03:01] Wayne: Mm-hmm. 

[00:03:02] Dani: Um, really interesting. When you, when you talk about the mask and you talk about your childhood, um, you know, mine was pretty similar. Um, you know, and, um, you, I, I, I was a real. intense, quiet kid, um, struck to really make relationships with, with people, you know, having, getting passed around from, you know, mum and dad and then my nana and pop for all my, you know, early years and then teenage years, um, you, you do put up, um, some pretty strong boundaries, um, and, and you won't let people in, um, now whether that's.

[00:03:41] Dani: You know, because you don't want to show a sign of weakness or whatever that might be. Um, and you know, through those years, dealing with what I now know as gender dysphoria. Um, and not, um, And, and not knowing what it was then. [00:04:00] Um, and that, you know, I got pretty sick through my early teenage years. Uh, glandular fever, a lot of anxiety, a lot of depression, where I actually stopped playing footy.

[00:04:10] Dani: Um, you know, and then the mask really came on. For me, um, when I went to West Perth Footy Club when I was 16. Yep. Um, and, you know, I still wouldn't let anyone close, but all of a sudden there was this, you know, bravado of being, you know, an uncompromising, competitive person. Um, and I... Behind that, um, because, you know, I'm trying to hide for one of the, not push away, not, yeah, not, not, not push away, but, but hide, um, the, um, the gender dysphoria, um, and then, you know, as I then started to make my way in [00:05:00] the AFL, um, and, you know, got to, got to North, um, my, my reputation preceded me, um, in a few different ways, really.

[00:05:11] Dani: Um, but there was always that mask, um, and the mask of, you know, if you ask, you know, up until the last few years, if you asked anyone in the AFL, um, about me, um, they would, they would say, um, unsociable, aloof, introverted, um, Words along those lines or in other ways, and this was particularly when I was coaching Mind you swatter did say Wayne's was we played with did say I was an angry person on the field Which was probably the case.

[00:05:50] Dani: Yeah but also as a coach being and quite times volcanic. Um, and they were the two personality [00:06:00] traits, or the masters we're talking about, that, um, um, you know, I was seen as. And I suppose I hated myself for that, because, you And it would really annoy me, but it was the only way I was just trying to survive and exist and sort of, in a way, protect myself.

[00:06:25] Dani: Um, and as much as I found it difficult, football was still my safe place. Um, where, you know, we had a great team, you know, back through that period of time. We were very lucky. Um... It was a tight group, we won a lot of games, um, and it was, it was fun. Um, it probably wasn't fun, that first game that we played together.

[00:06:54] Dani: Um, I always remember, um, We were supposed to play the Adelaide Crows, [00:07:00] uh, at Waverley, but there was something wrong with the oval, or the turf, or something, and, anyway, we, uh, had to go to Footy Park to play. And, uh, all the boys are going. Oh, we have to travel with it, and I'm thinking, hang on, I've spent the last six years travelling, you know.

[00:07:14] Dani: It's an hour flight. Yeah. Um, anyway, I remember there was myself, and, and yourself, and, um, I think it might have been, um, Brad Scholl. We went and had a kick. on the night before we took off and anyway we got over there and I think the plane was late or something. We got beat by 25 goals. Um, and Shimmer ended up getting the sack and then Matty Larkin gave up the, um, the captaincy and then Qantas stopped being our major sponsor and I'm thinking, oh my god, I've dragged my whole family up to here.

[00:07:45] Dani: And we're buggered. And we are cast, you know. Um, but those were really interesting times coming. Coming across and still having to, you know, going back to the mask. It was, [00:08:00] it was my way of keeping myself safe or normal. Um, I, I suppose. Um, but then I remember we played in Sydney in 93. Um, and Peter McKenna dubbed me the Junkyard Dog, which I absolutely and still despise.

[00:08:22] Dani: Um, because how I was portraying myself was even further away from the truth, um, and who I really was. And that was the. It was sort of like a vicious cycle, a vicious circle, if you like, you know, trying to be this person that, um, it was difficult to manage, um, with what was going on underneath the surface as to what I was dealing with on a, on a day to day basis.

[00:08:55] Dani: Did 

[00:08:55] Wayne: you, did you have an inkling that when you were at West Coast, and clearly, [00:09:00] like you said, you build these walls, you build the mast, did you have an inkling that any of the players that you played with at West Coast? you know, that they saw through a part of that mask when you 

[00:09:11] Dani: were at West Coast? No, I don't think so.

[00:09:13] Dani: Um, you know, my time at West Coast was, for me was really disappointing. Um, you know, play in their first squad and, um, playing their first game in their first final. Um, I had a hell of a lot of injuries as well and missed, you know, like two years with my knee. Um, and so, you know, I don't think Um, they saw through it, but now I've reconnected with quite a few of them, um, by me telling my story to them, um, and I, you know, I'll always go back little things.

[00:09:49] Dani: And they go, oh yeah, and what it does is, it's connected the dots for them, oh, that's why you were, that's why you were like that. And it probably has for a lot of the North boys and people I work with and [00:10:00] people I coach and that sort of stuff. Yeah, so it's been a real interesting, um, um, journey, but I would say...

[00:10:09] Dani: Um, the people at West Coast would have had a similar view of, from the time I walked into the door at North, um, but there was just some gaps there. Mark Brayshaw, he was always, you know, I always felt that there was a gap between. You wouldn't let anyone. In close and for obvious 

[00:10:29] Wayne: reasons, it was always, and I guess that's the misconception because, you know, we're all oblivious and we're becoming more, I guess, understanding and, and, and knowing all of these different, um, I don't know how you even, even word it, but, um, you know, we're, we're understanding more about the world and, and, and people's different views and how they want to live their life, I guess.

[00:10:54] Wayne: I guess. When you came to North, you know, there were, there was always a little, there were all these little [00:11:00] whispers and stuff, you know, you know, Danielle's sexuality and, you know, is, is he had the ti is he gay or, and there were always these little rumors and innuendo and stuff. Yep. And, and you know, coming as captain of the club, that came across my desk a little bit and even my sister Karen, who absolutely loves you.

[00:11:18] Wayne: Um, you know, she said to me a couple of times, because she had friends, and I don't, you know, and it was always these little questions, and I remember saying to Karen, I said, I said, I don't care what, I said, I don't care what, um, anyone does in their private life may have all people. I said, you know, what's their private life is their private life.

[00:11:39] Wayne: So I will be, um, you know, all that I care about is this team ticks on the ground and we all get along. And so it never really was one of those things that I felt was, you know, something that you go and talk about. And I know there were probably a few other players that would have heard similar things.

[00:11:54] Wayne: Did you ever feel, did you ever feel that? 

[00:11:59] Dani: Um, [00:12:00] I felt it the every day that I walked into the footy club. Yeah. Um, and the, and the reasons why that, that happened, um. I think it's in the book, I think I might have mentioned in the doco, um, West Coast played a pre season game out at Waverley on a Wednesday night, as we did back in those days.

[00:12:18] Dani: And, as we did in those days, um, we went out afterwards, it was a mid week game, um, and we went to Chasers, um, nightclub, which is pretty synonymous in Melwood, um, and there was a group of us. Now, I don't think any one of those... Eight or nine players that went along would have gone to that place themselves, because of the scrutiny that could have come with that.

[00:12:42] Dani: Um, so I end up meeting a couple of trans girls, there was a group of them, and we end up, all of us had this great night together, it was, um, funny, um, and for me it was an opportunity to talk and ask questions without. Trying to give anything away. [00:13:00] Um, so I, I became friends with a couple of them. Um, still to this day.

[00:13:06] Dani: Um, and then it wasn't, um, so I think this was about like 89. Um, and then the, the next time we caught up was, um, after the 92 grand final. So I'm an emergency for the, for the game. Um, we have the, um, You know, the post match celebrations, and I, because I missed out, you know, I wanted to sort of get out of there as quick as I could.

[00:13:31] Dani: Um, so, I was talking to the girls, and they said, come, come out with us, I said, yeah, okay. Um. And they've just given me the address, whatever number it was, Commercial Road. Um, and I thought, okay, yep, cool. So I, like, I've rolled up, what would it have been, like 12. 30? Um, and I've gone, as I've gone, got to the, to the front door, Um, the security guard goes, Do you really want to come in here?

[00:13:58] Dani: And I've gone, yeah, [00:14:00] yeah, I'm meeting a couple of girls, blah, blah, blah. He goes, oh, okay. And then, um, so I walk in there, and like, I don't, I don't even know what this place is at the time. Um, anyway, um, all of a sudden I had like one or two guys coming up and saying, Oh, what are you doing here? I said, Oh, I'm here to meet a few girls.

[00:14:18] Dani: And they said, Oh, that's what you... That's what everyone says. Yeah, and then like I've just twigged and it was actually three faces Which is a huge gay nightclub at that point in time now there was a couple of I think sons of Staff who were at working at North Melbourne at the time and they've spotted me.

[00:14:40] Dani: So this is Into September 92 and then I After, through the trade period, get traded to North Melbourne, um, and, um, I remember going to, um, a barbecue pre season, um, and one of the girls happened [00:15:00] to say something to my then wife, we think that your husband is gay, um, and, um, yeah, she, she challenged me on that and I said, please.

[00:15:14] Dani: Um, couldn't be further from the truth. Um, and so that's how it sort of started. You know, through those years, there started to be, like, whispers. Yeah. And that's probably why, even through my time at North Melbourne and any other clubs, that when there was ever a conversation about, Who possibly is a gay player?

[00:15:39] Dani: It would give me really high anxiety, and I would get out of that conversation As quickly as I could but then I would have a laugh and think to myself What do you find out about me? Yeah, and you know I always knew because of those couple of things [00:16:00] That And those girls were very protective of me, um, and are still very protective, um, of me.

[00:16:10] Dani: But that, that, I suppose, Chinese whispers, um, whenever I walked into the club as a player and a coach, it was, it was just sitting on my shoulder. And that was quite a, a heavy burden, um, but, you know, as you've said, no one, ever, um, said anything to me about it. Um, um, I actually remember Greg Miller, um, one day, because I ended up working at the club in my first year, um, and there was a pub just up the road, um, it was a gay and lesbian club, I think, the Oasis Hotel.

[00:16:50] Dani: Oh yeah, I've 

[00:16:51] Wayne: been to the Oasis. Yeah, 

[00:16:52] Dani: yeah, plenty of times we've been there. Um, and anyway, um, And 

[00:16:57] Wayne: no, I'm not going to. No, [00:17:00] no, 

[00:17:00] Dani: no. I'm just saying. No, but, um, it was, um, I had to go and pick up something there and he said to me, just off the cuff, oh you should know what that is. Ah, right. And like, just that, that little line was like, oh my anxiety would just go through the roof, you know.

[00:17:22] Dani: And, you know. By me searching out and befriending, um, some trans girls and using them as my counsel turned into this other, you know, thing which has always been very, very difficult, um, but now we can sit here and talk about it, um, and connect the dots with people and hopefully if there's any, um, player, um, you know, it's obviously quite prevalent with the girls, and they're open and honest about it, um, and it's a safe space for them, uh, within the AFLW.

[00:17:59] Dani: [00:18:00] Um, you know, and if there's anyone, um, you know, in the men's competition that, That is dealing, whether it's with gender identity or sexual orientation, that, um, in their own time, um, when they feel comfortable, um, you know, I think we'll, everyone will, you know, wrap their arms around them within, let's say, the wider football community, um, and that, that's why I was a bit annoyed at the Four Corners thing a couple of weeks ago when they were talking about, um, you know, how homophobic the AFL is.

[00:18:34] Dani: It's not, um, it's not... an AFL issue. It's a, it's a societal issue. It's, it's wider than that. It's when we step outside of, um, you know, our safe space, which is our football clubs, it's, um, the scrutiny and the burden, um, in society. 

[00:18:55] Wayne: Yeah, that's what I wanted to delve into a lot because that, that burden, [00:19:00] the mental health side of it.

[00:19:01] Wayne: So, I mean, quite astonishing really, given that you've got to go to work every day and you're a professional athlete, and you've got to go to work every day with that burden. What, was it a daily thing that you had to overcome? So is it, is it every training session that you roll up to it? Is it every day when you're at home with your family?

[00:19:20] Wayne: Is it, is it, does it sit there all the time or is it stronger at different times? You 

[00:19:25] Dani: know what, um, I tell you when it was at its... gave me its most anxiety was when I was coaching. Um, and you know, I would talk about being honest to yourself, honest to each other, to the, to this 

[00:19:45] Wayne: plain group. That's a coach's mantra.

[00:19:47] Wayne: Of course. 

[00:19:47] Dani: Yeah. Um, and here I am standing at the front of the group knowing. That I wasn't being honest. Um, and I've gone through, I've had to really [00:20:00] peel back the layers just on that little part. Um, because it would really get hold of me. Um. And, you know, it was something that I was really disappointed in myself, but as my, as we peeled back the layers of my sight, she said, no, you weren't being, um, dishonest.

[00:20:19] Dani: You were actually protecting yourself, because it wasn't the right time, um, and, you know, you still had a job to do. You didn't really know what was still going on at this point in time, um, even though there was internet, certainly when I was coaching, and, um. You could research and read and all that sort of stuff.

[00:20:40] Dani: So I was far greater educated, um, when I was, and knowing what I fully know now, when I was coaching, but far less as a player. It was, when I was a player, just those instances that we're talking about, um, it was more, it would [00:21:00] take me back to, Um, that, that series of events which led to the rumoury innuendo.

[00:21:08] Dani: Um, so I, I, you know, the coaching stuff I found particularly. 

[00:21:15] Wayne: I know we've, um, spoken about this before and, uh, when we, I think when we first, uh, met. Um, when we first, when I first met Danielle and we spoke about it and I remember saying, uh, when we played against North Melbourne for the first time, I've obviously left, left the Crows.

[00:21:32] Wayne: Um, everyone knows why I left the Crows and I'm playing against North for the first time. And you gave the team instructions, you know, don't just, just, you know what, no matter what happens, don't shake Duck's hand. That, that sat with me for a fair while, and we discussed it when we met. And I always, I always had this, you know, anxiety, and I've obviously, the, the, the next time I thought I'd run into you, I thought I'd be talking to, obviously, Dean, right?

[00:21:58] Wayne: And, and, but I [00:22:00] said, I thought, I, and going to meet you that day, talk about anxiety. Yeah. Because I know what you've been carrying, and here I am going, mate, well, all that happened was, you know, the instructions not to shake my hand. So I'm going there going, should I bring it up? Is it something that, you know, you know, you know, you're going to, you want to answer?

[00:22:22] Wayne: So I went there with all this trepidation and, and, and like I said, you know, different anxiety. You had an anxiety, I had an anxiety that first time we met. Um, and I must say I walked away and, and you know, you, you, you know, apologized and told me what had occurred the week before, um, and I walked away and let's be honest, if I was to hold a grudge against anyone for saying something poorly or doing something wrong, I wouldn't talk to too many people.

[00:22:51] Wayne: So I walked away and I just, it was like this weight had been lifted off my shoulders that I, that I. Talk to you about that. Yep. [00:23:00] And the forgiveness was immediate. Um, you sent me a nice message after and I just thought, I'm just glad I, I and, and, and I didn't really know what the circumstances was. No. So, um, yeah, so I held a lot of I that, that first meeting, there was so much, uh, going on in my head when we, when we first caught up on that 

[00:23:21] Dani: occasion.

[00:23:22] Dani: Um, and, and it's been similar with, you know, a lot of people that I. Met on, on my behalf and I know on, let's say, in our instance, your behalf. Um, you know, and I've sort of taken it upon myself to try and reach out, be honest, put everything on the table, um, to make everyone feel comfortable, um, through that period of time.

[00:23:45] Dani: Um, you know, and when you said that to me, it was like, it was like a dagger in the heart. Um, but I could also understand that, you know, you walking around with that, and [00:24:00] regardless of what happened, you know, what you did for the footy club, as a captain, as a player, um, and then, Um, to think that, you know, that would be my objective to say, you know what, like, just wipe him off the table.

[00:24:16] Dani: Um, you know, as I said, being a young coach, and we played Dennis or Carlton, the week before. Um, and I went down the wrong track, and I said this to you, wound the boys up emotionally, and I got emotionally involved, and we lost the game. Um, I think by five points, and it was like consecutive Friday night games.

[00:24:38] Dani: And then obviously it's, um, we're playing Adelaide Crows the following week, so it was like, okay, um, let's just regard the, uh, opposition, and obviously you're playing in the opposition, we've got to focus in on what we're doing. Um, as a young coach in my first year, I think it was, yeah, it was my sixth or seventh game, [00:25:00] um, and those first, those first games were tough, so.

[00:25:05] Dani: You know, when, when you did tell me that, like, I, you know, my jaw had nearly dropped on the ground. But I'm glad we actually could speak about that, um, and have those conversations. You know, it's, it's certainly helped me, um, and you know, I hope it's 

[00:25:23] Wayne: helped you. No, it certainly did. And, and once again, like I said, as soon as I got, you know, the apology, I, I, the forgiveness was, was instant.

[00:25:33] Wayne: So let's move, let's move to everyday life now. Now, clearly your life has changed, you know, um, just a little, just a little. So you're not, you're no longer, you're no longer can walk down the street and not be recognized. I, I assume. Um, That's not, I don't confess to be Mel Gibson, but I've had that for a little while.

[00:25:55] Wayne: Um, you've always got someone coming up and saying g'day, so someone's always [00:26:00] watching. Do you, do you walk down the street now with your head high and feel good about yourself? Or is there still that insecure, you know, what are people, because once again without sounding like a dick. You know, I went through a period through my footy career and even at times after going to a restaurant, you know, people know who you are.

[00:26:19] Wayne: So when they're judging you because of mistakes you've made and whatever you've done or so, you know, they're talking about you. And I went through a stage where I just, that just overwhelmed me and I, and I couldn't enjoy the person's company that I was with because I was worried about what everyone else was saying and whether it be good or bad.

[00:26:37] Wayne: I never said it to your face, but they're just murmurs and you know what's going on. I've over, I overcome that through a lot of work, through, you know, speaking to professionals and everything else, and then the penny dropped and now I can be in a moment. And it's, oh, it's so refreshing to be able to go to a restaurant or go to the races or go and speak to people, sit here and do this podcast.

[00:26:59] Wayne: And have [00:27:00] that, just have that even, you know, we all still have our, uh, our issues and thoughts and it's still an ongoing thing, but that burden for me has been lifted. Can you, can you do that on a daily basis now, or does it fluctuate? 

[00:27:13] Dani: Um, on the whole now, um, Donna and I, um, get to live in the present. Yep.

[00:27:22] Dani: Which has, life's been much easier. Ongoing issues that, you know, I'm working through, but everyone in their life has different issues. Um, and it is far more relaxing, less anxiety, um, less depression, um, which we saw on the, uh, on the doco. So it, it, it's really gone, um, the whole spectrum of initially when it came out.

[00:27:56] Dani: Um, went to rehab and then get [00:28:00] out and walking down the street, um, you know, I, I still had to be myself or the new person that people were seeing. And that's taken, um, people some time to get their head around because I had some sort of a public. Figure before. Yeah, of course. Um, and, but there was, I was also ashamed and embarrassment of what went on at that time.

[00:28:29] Dani: Um, you know, the blow up with the, uh, with the police and, you know, the drugs. Um, and then in getting charged and going to court and, you know, all those things. So there was some real embarrassment where I still had to be myself. Um, but I was, I was head down a little. I Yep. At times. A lot. Yeah, a lot. Um, and then, um, I, I've just gained confidence through [00:29:00] being accepted.

[00:29:01] Dani: Um, and because, let's face it, when, when the, let It All first came out that the narrative was pretty, pretty unkind, um, and, um, We had no control over that, um, as a family. Um, it was a lot of innuendo. Um, stuff that we've touched on before. There was, you know, some part of that still bubbling through. Um, and that, you know, I'm, I'm a cross dressing drug addict, whatever.

[00:29:38] Dani: Um, and I then, I suppose... As we've slowly been able to change the narrative, with all the support that we've had, Um, you know, now I'm, I can feel myself, um, being much more confident in [00:30:00] myself. Yep. Um, you know, because you carry that burden, that shame and embarrassment and fear of what people would say or think and that sort of stuff.

[00:30:08] Dani: Um, but I've really learnt, um, to... Live in the present, not listen to the keyboard warriors, not listen to, um, people who just want to be nasty and, and bring you down and that, you know, I, I don't have time for that. Um, and we get stopped, you know, in the street, even on, on the weekend, um, we've been in Melbourne now for a few weeks, um, you know, obviously over the finals and stuff.

[00:30:42] Dani: And even since the doco came out, a couple of weeks ago, two weeks, um, to now to just last week, um, and you know, going to a grand final lunch on Friday, going to the game on [00:31:00] Saturday, going to the September club, going to the city to catch up with Kane. It's like. And it was like... So you 

[00:31:09] Wayne: do feel, you feel the eyes, the eyes.

[00:31:11] Wayne: Yeah, the 

[00:31:12] Dani: eyes, the eyes. Like on the weekend it was like quite unbelievable. Um, still... What, when people talk to you, photo or anything, very positive. Oh, great. Documentary. We've watched your documentary, I've read your book. You're doing such great things. Um, and that's all very positive, but the, the burden of the eyes, yeah.

[00:31:36] Dani: Just, just in itself is like, until you actually, um, 

[00:31:43] Wayne: Live it? No. No, you can't. No one can explain. No one can explain unless you've lived it. Yeah. Do you, do you try to judge when that happens? Are you, and, and you're in that and you do feel overwhelmed by it? Are you trying to judge, you know, what, what are their eyes thinking?

[00:31:58] Wayne: What, what's he thinking is, is [00:32:00] that, is that comment condescending? Are they being truthful? Uh, is that just, and it's just like a thousand thoughts going through your head? 

[00:32:07] Dani: 100%. Yeah. Absolutely. Spot on Duck . It isn't so true. Like, Even, um, going into the ground, like, people are tapping you on the shoulder, Oh, the doco's great, but then, you see out the corner of your eye, Uh, two males, probably in their mid thirties, like, Snickering, yep.

[00:32:26] Dani: Snickering, like, turning around, laughing, looking at you, and you just like to think, Yeah. Like, give it away, like, please, you know, um, but, That's, and that's, that's a part of society, so, for me, it doesn't matter whether you're transgender, gay, bi, lesbian, from a different culture, you're either a good person, or you're a bad person.

[00:32:50] Dani: Um, and I just don't know why people, um, are so nasty. But it also might be Donna and I thinking, What are they [00:33:00] saying? Are they being condescending? Are they putting us down? Um, you know, at the footy this year, probably on three or four of occasions where, um, people have sort of come up beside us and try to take a, like a sneaky, um, self, you know, selfie.

[00:33:15] Dani: And, um, I remember one day, I think, I think it might've been round one early this year and I'm standing next to Ron and I just feel a launch, like across three lanes to these blokes. Hey! If you want a photo, just ask. No issue. It doesn't cost us anything. Be respectful, um, and you know, enjoy the game and get on with it.

[00:33:39] Dani: Um, so like they were sort of then quite sheepish, um, with that. And as we got to the gate, I just leaned over to the guy and sort of grabbed him, the back of the elbow, said, hey, just be respectful. That's all it is, just be respectful. If you want a photo, no issue. But I'm not [00:34:00] going to walk past that behaviour and not...

[00:34:05] Dani: say anything, and I'm not going to, I don't want to try and change the world or anything, but just, we're all humans, just be respectful. Or, you know, if you're eating in a restaurant and someone comes up and says, Oh, sorry, can I have a photo? Well, actually, you're not sorry. You can see we're eating and we're talking.

[00:34:21] Dani: Find the right moment, and yeah, sure, you know, you've done it ten million times. 

[00:34:27] Wayne: Have you come to the conclusion, because, once again, no way am I comparing.

[00:34:36] Wayne: But I understand those looks, I understand people trying to take photos, I understand all of that. I think one of the big things that has helped me is that understanding that that is for me, and I don't know what the fascination with me is, but it's never going to change. So, who I'm dating at the time, what [00:35:00] I'm doing in my life, private life, all of that.

[00:35:02] Wayne: So it's just, for whatever reason, there's something that needs to be said. So, or, or when you're out, same, same, have you come to the realisation that that's going to be with you for, for ever? 

[00:35:14] Dani: Uh, yeah we have. Um, and, and I have to say, apart from the initial narrative. Um, story not in our words and that.

[00:35:24] Dani: Since we've grabbed hold of the narrative and turned that around, in a way we've become the darlings of the media a bit, um, and it's a good story and that. 

[00:35:38] Wayne: I can flip that very quickly. That's my point. Um. Oh, they're very good at, they're very, they're very good at going. Yep. 

[00:35:47] Dani: Where, and, and, and we know, we know it's, it's purely about the story.

[00:35:53] Dani: Um, and you know, I, I'm sure we'll be on the end of something or someone, or whatever it might [00:36:00] be. Um, and you know, we, we spoke, we speak, um, not often, but enough to say, well, yeah, let's enjoy this for what it is. Um, And because it's going to be, um, it's going to be there forever. Um, I'll tell you what, Donna taught me something.

[00:36:22] Dani: She saw this, um, it was at, um, Burt Newton's funeral. Um, and Paddy got out of the car, um, and the first thing she did was wave to all the paps and, you know, blew them kisses and everything. Um, and, um, I think later... There was something in an article where, you know, um, I know it's all about the story, um, but I've been respectful for them, hopefully they'll be respectful for me, um, and it was a pretty good sort of baseline to work off, um, and [00:37:00] I'm happy now that, um, at this stage in my life that I can talk about.

[00:37:06] Dani: Anything, you know, um, whether it's hair, make up, shoes. Whatever it might be to talking footy, um, you know, I, I've not been able to do that my whole life. 

[00:37:19] Wayne: I, I did take, um, I did take special interest in, in one of the comments you made in your documentary, not, we said we didn't want to go back to the documentary, but just, you wanted to coach, you thought you might one day want to coach again.

[00:37:32] Wayne: I thought that was, um, interesting and, and, and, and. Um, not brave, but interesting that you would put yourself back in that cauldron given the pressure that that brings. 

[00:37:46] Dani: Yeah. Um, and when I say coaching, I'm not talking about AFL. AFL. Okay. No. Definitely not. Um, you know, I've done my time [00:38:00] and I've enjoyed it.

[00:38:02] Dani: Some parts of it, some parts not so much, but, um, to be able to give back, um, whether it's AFLW, whether it's State League, whether it's, um, you know, one of my best years was in 2019, where I coached at Maribyrnong, um, where your nephew used to play. Um, and, um, I would have to say, you know, we didn't make the finals or anything that year, but that would be in the top, um, Five or six years of my whole foot.

[00:38:32] Dani: It was just, I loved it. Um, so even to be able to give back now, um, because I can, um, would be pretty cool. 

[00:38:42] Wayne: So the passion from this point on is sending a message. Yeah. Um, obviously, obviously, you know, not hiding away, but putting yourself front and 

[00:38:55] Dani: center. Yeah. So, uh, uh, we do. So [00:39:00] we've sort of been, um, contracted with the DOCO.

[00:39:04] Dani: So we've been able to do some corporate, um, diversity inclusion training specific to transgender people, uh, in the workforce. Um, so we'll be, we'll be ramping that up, um, across, across the country. Um, there'll be some of that diversity inclusion work and ambassadorial, um, work, um, hopefully next year with the AFL.

[00:39:29] Dani: Um, I would love to... Um, get on radio. Um, you know, I've probably done that for five or six years. Um, well, yeah. And that sort of stuff. Um, you know, it's, yeah, it is a great job. Radio, radio is fun. Good fun. It really 

[00:39:46] Wayne: is. Triple M would be a great fit for you. 

[00:39:49] Dani: Well, I really would. Do you know the boss? 

[00:39:52] Wayne: Ewan, yes.

[00:39:54] Wayne: That would be a great fit. Yeah. 

[00:39:55] Dani: So, you know, there's, so there's, there's stuff like that. Um, [00:40:00] you know, and we, we have our own, um, disability, um, uh, business in Perth, uh, where we house disability clients in our supported independent living houses and give them 24 7 care. Um, so Donald runs most of that. Um, and then we're sort of back and forward, um.

[00:40:21] Dani: Uh, between Perth and Melbourne every, every few weeks. Um, it does get a little bit tiring, we're not spring chickens anymore, but, um, you know, so that, that sort of fuels our cup. So anything with footy, cause it's in my blood, um, and I still have a passion for it. Um, and anything to do with particularly the rain, or the rainbow, and particularly the transgender community.

[00:40:44] Dani: Um, you know, it was only, um, last week, or the week before, the middle of the week before. Um, Um, we travelled down to country Victoria and we had 80 gender diverse kids, um, from [00:41:00] around the area. Um, we spent So, so, so 80? 

[00:41:03] Wayne: 80. 80? Yep. And what sort of area does that 

[00:41:07] Dani: I won't go into the area because it's quite, it's a big area.

[00:41:11] Dani: Big area. Um, and they all came in and we gave them a safe space for the day. We gave them an opportunity to have a chat. Um, tell a little bit about my story. Um, and that was with either parents, school teachers, um, or carers who, who, Um, you know, so things like that. We did it earlier this year, um, at the Victorian Pride Centre.

[00:41:35] Dani: We bused 130 gender diverse kids from around the whole state. Um, uh, with a group that got some funding. Um, and, um, you know, gave them, um, did some workshops. Uh, gave them, gave them some lunch. They were able to converse with other. Uh, gender diverse kids, because particularly in the country, you know, it's, they become [00:42:00] quite isolated, how come there's no one else like me, um, they give up playing footy or netball because there's no one else like that, um, you know, that's playing the game and I'm the only one, so no, I won't play, um, and with gender diverse kids, the first thing that they'll drop out of is sport.

[00:42:19] Dani: Um, and as we know, the backbone of Australian culture, um, particularly in regional areas are football, cricket, netball, clubs, um. Because they, uh, people are a part of something, can belong to something, can, um, yeah, so we love doing all that sort of stuff, yeah. 

[00:42:36] Wayne: So, well, mate, I, I didn't want to keep you all day.

[00:42:39] Wayne: What I, what I'm, what I was fascinated about and what we haven't spoken about personally is, and, and I, and this is what we love talking about on The Truth Hurts, and I love talking, I do some stuff with the GBS as well, um, in my spare time around men's, um, mental health. And that is, you know, everyone has a, everyone has a story.

[00:42:59] Wayne: I'm [00:43:00] a big believer, that's what I've learnt after I've retired, everyone has a story and everyone has a really interesting story and when you sit back and listen, and I'm fascinated by how people get through it and understand that it's a daily battle for some and it's a constant thing and especially now that you're, you know, obviously more in the, more in the public eye than you've ever been, um, it's, that's, that's what really intrigues me because the reason why it intrigues me is because it helps me as well.

[00:43:29] Dani: It's quite, and it's, you know what, I'm glad you said that because for me it's very therapeutic to sit down and with you and, um, and, and, and be able to talk about, um, you know, these issues. And we're lucky enough to have platforms like this and other platforms that we've had over our journeys to, um, tell our story.

[00:43:53] Dani: But, as you say, everyone's got a story and everyone has an important story. And [00:44:00] they could easily come and sit where we are today and tell their story and people would get something out of it. And so for me, the bottom line with that is our ability to talk and converse and listen. Um, and because you'll always learn something from someone.

[00:44:19] Dani: And I think, you know, platforms like this are an incredible thing. 

[00:44:26] Wayne: Thanks for coming on The Truth Hurts. Cheers, thank you for having us. Look forward to having a beer with a few of the old team mates sometime in the future. Absolutely.