Season 1 - EP #39 - Overhyped trades, more dollars than sense and a Carey family first!

Season 1 - EP #39 - Overhyped trades, more dollars than sense and a Carey family first!

Duck and Wool weigh in on trades that may seem a little over hyped, they touch on player pay and Duck has a proud dad moment!

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Transcript

Episode #39

[00:00:00] 

[00:00:00] Ayrton: Well, we're back for another episode of The Truth Hurts. I'm Ayrton Mooney alongside the King, Wayne, 

[00:00:04] Wayne: Carey, Duck, just how you say it. By the way, sitting there watching the races on the weekend and had a tip in a race and you wouldn't believe the horse that won. Yeah. And it beat my horse. I was cheering and the bloody thing that won was called Anton.

[00:00:23] Ayrton: You, so you're telling me you didn't back 

[00:00:25] Wayne: me on the weekend. Well, it was called it? Ayrton. Ayrton. Yeah. It won. Paid six bucks too. Yeah. Did you back it? I did back 

[00:00:33] Ayrton: it. Just a little, just a little bit. Did you, did you get a bit excited hearing the name coming down 

[00:00:37] Wayne: the street? Well, I think, you know what was funny?

[00:00:40] Wayne: I found funny. The caller called it Anton as well. No, 

[00:00:43] Ayrton: he didn't. 

[00:00:47] Wayne: He did. He said 

[00:00:48] Ayrton: Anton. I think we need to get the audio for that just so we can have a bit of a listen, so you can have a listen. I'll tell you what, 

[00:00:51] Wayne: it was a good win. It was, yeah. Is that named after? Nah, it wouldn't be named after you. Hey, just before we...

[00:00:58] Wayne: It'd be the race car driver. [00:01:00] Yeah, 

[00:01:00] Ayrton: I'd say so. Now, just before we start, Duck, I looked out the window this morning and the sun was shining, actually, and I thought, oh, I've got to wear shorts and a t shirt and thongs. You know, I'm a bit lazy. Don't put shoes and socks on. But then I look at you across the table.

[00:01:13] Ayrton: You're very, very smartly dressed. A little knit 

[00:01:16] Wayne: jeans and a knit t shirt. Well, there's, there's good reason for the, uh, college sort of, uh, you know, skivvy knit look. Yeah. If that's what you want to call it. Um, don't put this on too often because I'm, I'm, I'm warm, but I get hot, right? I do, which is why I always wear tees.

[00:01:35] Wayne: I very rarely wear a jumper, but you're not going to believe, I've had one of the proudest moments a father can have this morning. And that is, I went to my. Beautiful daughter Ella, who is 17 and she's about to go into her exams. She's about to graduate year 12. So her last assembly today was this morning, was this morning.

[00:01:57] Wayne: Um, and so I thought I'd better [00:02:00] put the ecology sort of jumper look, um, to go to that. Um, it was very, you know what, unbelievable. And it got me thinking, I'm sitting there thinking. I reckon she's the only Carey ever to pass Year 12. I don't think there has been a Carey that I know of. If there is, if I've got a cousin or a second cousin or third cousin out there that actually got through Year 12 and passed, she'll be going to, she's going to uni.

[00:02:26] Wayne: She's going to La Trobe next year. So she's, you know, just that proud because I finished year 11, which is very high for the Careys, by the way. Very, very high. I think my eldest brother, he did, uh, I think he was year 8. My younger brother, I'm not even sure, year 7 or 8. Uh, my two sisters, my, uh, Karen, closest to me, she did, she, Did year 12, but didn't do the exam, so she didn't finish it.

[00:02:57] Wayne: And my eldest sister, Shazza, you know I was going to be [00:03:00] called Dazza, too. Yes, I've heard that story. Um, Shazza, Shazza, Dazza. So she, I think she was year 9 or 10, but not all the way. And then, Then I've got my nephews and everyone else and other cousins and they've, you know, their school wasn't their go.

[00:03:18] Wayne: Well, 

[00:03:18] Ayrton: congratulations Ella. What are her interests? What's she 

[00:03:22] Wayne: going to be studying? Yeah, sort of interest around osteophysio. You need, you need big points for that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So she's clearly, clearly hasn't got, uh... Didn't get my genes, but it comes from her mother. Sally was a chartered account at PricewaterhouseCoopers and went through university and did all that.

[00:03:44] Wayne: So clearly she's followed in her mother's footsteps. But very, very proud I was sitting there. And tomorrow I'm going to see, they're throwing the hats off the building. You know, when you see that on the movie, [00:04:00] I thought I'd never ever be involved in something like that. But I am doing that tomorrow with Ella.

[00:04:06] Wayne: So a really emotional day for me. Yeah, that's awesome. A proud day. 

[00:04:12] Ayrton: Congratulations. Yeah. That's a day that you maybe thought would 

[00:04:15] Wayne: never come for you. Well, it was only when I was lying there last night in bed where I started thinking, thought, well, clearly, you know, my siblings, none of us did it. Yeah. Um.

[00:04:26] Wayne: And I don't think I'm, well, I'm positive my dad's, uh, you know, brothers, a couple of their boys, and I'm positive they never finish year 12. So if there are any Careys out there that like relatives that listen to, uh, The Truth Hurts, I'd love to know whether you've actually passed year 12 because Ellen might be just the first Carey ever to do it.

[00:04:48] Wayne: That'll 

[00:04:48] Ayrton: probably be the most intelligent conversation we have on this show today as well. Um, apologies in advance to our listeners, but, uh, You've obviously got that coming up, big week, uh, in the [00:05:00] background, whole lot of stuff going on in the sporting world, um, you've had a, you've, you get every now and then you come in and you're just, you're just a bit sort of agitated about some things.

[00:05:09] Wayne: I'm just, I'm bemused. Bemused? Bemused about all of the, I'm bemused about how during this trade period, and a lot of other people have spoken about this, but how players just get better. You know, they're leaving the club and all of a sudden they're a superstar and they're you know, like Schultz, you know Who's Collingwood again?

[00:05:29] Wayne: He's the best ball forward the game's ever seen According to the all the reports, you know, then you've got obviously big Mackay that's gone to it. I mean he's he's been Mackay Yes, he's well, he's Steve Silvani crossed with David Dench and Bruce Dool That's you know, he's he's the Bombers savior at the moment and the type of money You get to leave your club now on the back of just showing glimpses of potential, no consistency whatsoever.

[00:05:58] Wayne: It's just, it's astounding. [00:06:00] And then you've got legends of your footy club and we'll go down as a hall of famer. Um, in Tom Hawkins and people are sort of umming and ahhing about what he's worth. The average wage has gone up since the new agreement. I think it's just under 500, 000 now. Can you believe it?

[00:06:17] Wayne: Yeah, it's pretty significant. So, so if that's the case, so let's, I think it's 480. So let's round it up to 500, it's just easier. Um, what's Tom Hawkins worth? He's got to be worth 700. Oh, absolutely. And if, and if Mackay at Essendon's getting 800, and he's the one that's going to be playing on Hawkins, I mean, whether it's a year, whether he gets, you know, does one year at a time, he's, he's worth every bit of 700, isn't he?

[00:06:44] Wayne: Oh, Tomahawk, 

[00:06:44] Ayrton: absolutely. I guess the, the way Geelong have, have done it has been different to, they haven't overpaid even when they got, say, a Patrick Dangerfield, they've had their, their structure, you know, success over... I 

[00:06:56] Wayne: think there's, you know... They get very well looked after down that way. 

[00:06:59] Ayrton: Oh, [00:07:00] I don't doubt that he still, um, gets some decent money.

[00:07:03] Ayrton: No, I was surprised about the reports last week about Tom Hawkins and, uh, so he is staying on with Geelong now that, you know, Melbourne inquired. But it is about, it's about money. Yes, yeah, he, well, that's our understanding that maybe Geelong's offer was, was not fantastic. Well, 

[00:07:19] Wayne: it'd have to, it's got to be well over 500 in my opinion.

[00:07:23] Wayne: It's, it has to be. Well, can't, its not If Tom Hawkins, you can't give Tom Hawkins what he kicked 50 on last. Yeah. 

[00:07:30] Ayrton: It's not, it was, it'd been insulting. I mean, he's still been playing great footy that this is what I mean. Yeah. 

[00:07:35] Wayne: I, I, yeah, I, well, one, it would be a, uh, be a nightmare for the footy club to let. If they actually did let Tom Robinson's go and we know that it's not going to happen.

[00:07:46] Wayne: But pay him what he's worth and what he's given to that footy club. 

[00:07:49] Ayrton: The one that, the one that, um, uh, interesting that you, you often bring up Ben McKay. That one as an Essendon supporter doesn't bother me as much because I feel like he feels a need and the Bombers [00:08:00] had the cap space and he's been playing in a terrible team.

[00:08:02] Ayrton: So you look worse as a defender. The one that worries me more as Essendon is the Jay Gresham one. Uh, from St. Kilda. So they've sort of massaged this through. So St. Kilda have got into first round compensation. I still wonder what games are going on there behind the scenes, but I, I've got security mates who are happy to, to, to lose Jade Gresham at that price.

[00:08:24] Ayrton: I, I, I, I, I worry about spending that money, 700, 000 potentially over three years for him. Seems like a lot to me. 

[00:08:31] Wayne: Well, it's littered with, you know, North Melbourne made the same mistake a few years ago as we know, well documented and, and paying guys and that didn't work out well for them. 

[00:08:40] Ayrton: Did it. You're referring to like a Jared Polak or someone like that?

[00:08:43] Ayrton: Well, there's a few of them, yeah. Yeah, and I was sorry, even Nathan Buckley said today that if he had his time again, they wouldn't have paid Brody Grundy his deal. They would have let him go to Adelaide. Easy to say in hindsight, but these long term deals don't always work out. I mean, not long term in the case of Gresham, but, um, but a [00:09:00] big price deal.

[00:09:01] Ayrton: You, we've spoken about this before, about how... Contracts feed into the general, uh, culture or, or, 

[00:09:08] Wayne: um... It can upset, if you bring a guy in like Mackay, say the bombers who have done that. And I keep using him as an example because he's probably been the one that, you know, has been spoken about the most. So, all of a sudden he comes in and then you've got another defender or another player that has been there for a number of years and is on, you know, 600.

[00:09:30] Wayne: And has proven himself. to be my more consistent player, then it can cause little fractions within your, uh, within your football club. And I, I'll go back to Adelaide who was on a very stringent, uh, payment system. And it was basically captain best player. And then everyone falls into line after that. And I remember, uh, I remember when Simon Goodwin was captain.

[00:09:55] Wayne: So this is after, uh, Roo. Um, [00:10:00] had vacated the captaincy. And Kurt Tippett, Adelaide had to offer him a big amount of money not to go to Sydney. And when that filtered through to the captain, who was now the Melbourne coach, Simon Goodwin, I vividly remember how that upset the apple cart because they'd never done that before.

[00:10:18] Wayne: They'd never offered someone that type of money. To stay, which went over and above what, you know, your best players were getting paid. And that, and it, and it does, it causes trouble from within. You have to have a really strong leadership group. And I know Geelong have done it really well. And, you know, you hear about Joel Selwood taking pay cuts to get Cameron there.

[00:10:38] Wayne: And, you know, Dangerfield getting there. And, you know, players just, they, they want to make their team better. Invariably know that if they do that, they end up, um, with more anyway. Because they're a good team, so you get all the, you know, the pros, um, that come along with being a good team in a Premiership team.

[00:10:54] Wayne: Yep. So that's where, you, you, you want to, it's like [00:11:00] anyone when you, when you leave, you, you want to go there and perform straight away. Because if you don't perform straight away, then that pressure just builds and builds and builds. And that's why I didn't, I didn't really worry too much when I went to Adelaide.

[00:11:12] Wayne: Because I took a big pay cut, I didn't go there for massive money. So the pressure of being, you know, the highest paid at the club was not a pressure. And it does come with, it does come with a fair bit, so it'll be interesting to see how some of these players handle that. When you, 

[00:11:26] Ayrton: I'm interested in that, um, you, the, the idea of, um, success over money and taking pay cuts because Clubs can be a bit more creative with the salary cap now, perhaps, than what they were, you know, back ending deals and all that sort of stuff, but clubs in the past had lost players.

[00:11:42] Ayrton: We spoke about Essendon last week, you know, around 2000. Did you have an idea of what you're worth and you stuck to that and you're like, no, this is what I'm worth? Or are you wary of how that fits into the overall picture? 

[00:11:57] Wayne: I've spoken about this before, and [00:12:00] I've mentioned this about Mark Rusciuto after 1998, after we toured Ireland together.

[00:12:07] Wayne: Roo, we were having a discussion about what we were all getting paid, and clubs hate you talking about what you get paid, because they don't want other players to know. Because then they understand where they sit within that group. So it's always been secret squirrel stuff and an unwritten law that you don't discuss your ways with other, your teammates.

[00:12:28] Wayne: I did the complete opposite at Captain at North. I told Arch what I was getting. You know, I told Steve O, I told, you know, Anthony Rock, I told them. So then they could form their own opinion what they were worth. If they were getting underpaid, they could go in and discuss it. And I thought that was important within, for our group to understand, um, you know, what, where they sat within that, um, payment plan, if you like.

[00:12:54] Wayne: And, um, I, it's, it's healthy, but it can cause. Um, [00:13:00] problems if you've come from another club and you haven't put in the hard yards and you're not playing good footy. As soon as you're not playing good footy, those, just those little, um, yeah, just those little conversations at the milk bar when you're having with a couple of boys and you're going, Oh, I tell you what, he's, he's not exactly pulling his weight for a bloke on 800, 000 grand, 800 grand, you know, what, what, why are we paying him that?

[00:13:25] Wayne: I had five kicked on him last week, you know, those little conversations start to happen and you only need that to upset the group a little bit. And then you have some problems. 

[00:13:36] Ayrton: Just on the players that have been mentioned in the last week, Lachie Schultz you touched on there, and he is an interesting 

[00:13:42] Wayne: one.

[00:13:43] Wayne: He's Cyril Rioli mixed in with Geoffrey Farmer. 

[00:13:48] Ayrton: It's funny, he's a player 

[00:13:49] Wayne: I've watched a little bit of. They've got a bit of Alex Jezzolico in him, by the sounds of how good he is. I often 

[00:13:54] Ayrton: include Lachie Schultz for a goal in my, in my multi, so I feel like he's a player I've watched a little bit. [00:14:00] Um, he's, he's one of those, he's, he's a worker as well, so I think that's, Collingwood feel like he can add.

[00:14:05] Ayrton: What do you mean? He's a plumber or? No, in terms of, he's not just, he gets the odd goal of the game. Oh, right. But he's, he's... A worker on the ground. There's a, there's pressure from him. Collingwood obviously see that that, they can still add to that, uh, area. How do you think he... Um, he fits into that whole, um, that whole Ford setup and what does it mean for someone like Jack Ginnivan has been the, the question, uh, if you're Jack, do you, are you worried about that sort 

[00:14:28] Wayne: of thing or 100 percent you are, I mean, he, he's on the fringe anyway.

[00:14:33] Wayne: It doesn't matter who you are and I will say this, who you are, whether you, whether you're Andrew McLeod, Mark Rusciuto, Steven Silvani, Robert Harvey, you know, the list goes on when each year when the draft comes about. And the trade period or however players get to your footy club has changed over the years clearly.

[00:14:55] Wayne: When they come in, you size them up. You know what positions they play, you know, [00:15:00] their strengths, the weaknesses, and it doesn't matter how, where you sit. I remember, you know, them recruiting, uh, key forwards and, and key defenders, and these guys walk in and they're six foot five and, you know, they're, they're, you know, good physically built already.

[00:15:16] Wayne: And you find out that they're a Senat forward and you're sitting there and I remember, you don't, you don't say it out loud or speak to people about it, but you're sitting there thinking, why are they recruiting another Senat forward or another key position player, like we've got him, we've got him, we've got him.

[00:15:30] Wayne: And, and more importantly, you, you think about your own position. And this is, this is in, this is when you're in the primary year career, you still have that element of fear that they could bring someone in that could take your spot. And I think while ever you think like that. That's why you'll keep improving.

[00:15:48] Wayne: As soon as you think that you've, you've mastered the game and you, you know, it doesn't matter who they bring in. You know, you're, you're going to be the centre half forward, you know, for, for ever in a day. If you think like [00:16:00] that, someone will take your position. You've got to have the fear of people coming in to take your position.

[00:16:06] Wayne: So if I'm Ginniven and he's still at that club, you know what I'm doing this year? I'm having the best pre season I've ever, ever, ever had. If I'm, if I'm Hill, who's just won a Norm Smith medal, I'm making sure that I leave no stone unturned to become a better footballer. You've got to, you've got to be fearful who's coming in and you've got to make sure that they don't take your spot.

[00:16:27] Wayne: That's, that's, if you have that attitude and then that leads to you then having a career best year. So that's the attitude. 

[00:16:36] Ayrton: Absolutely, no, that makes a lot of sense. It'll be, um, interesting to see how that plays out with Jack Ginniven, not just in the final days of the trade period. Colin would say he's staying, but obviously that can change what happens in the future with his position in that team.

[00:16:47] Ayrton: You know, someone like Jamie Elliott is probably going to, you know, he's maybe got a year or so left. Um, so there will be spots that open up there 

[00:16:53] Wayne: as well. Talk about, uh, talking about fighting too, fighting for your position. Let's just change tack. What did, did you [00:17:00] happen to watch the fight yesterday? Tim Zhu.

[00:17:02] Wayne: No, when you said 

[00:17:03] Ayrton: the fight, I thought you were gonna talk about Logan Paul and, um, bloke. He was, that 

[00:17:07] Wayne: wasn't a fight. 

[00:17:09] Ayrton: and K s I and Thomas. That 

[00:17:10] Wayne: was a wrestling, it was a wrestling, uh, match . I 

[00:17:14] Ayrton: think I saw a stat like Logan Paul, uh, threw 80 punches to nine or something in, in a couple of rounds or something like Yeah, it 

[00:17:20] Wayne: was a, yeah, not, I, I didn't watch a lot of that fight, but I, I, I really enjoyed the Mendoza Zoo fight.

[00:17:26] Wayne: Um, and I know Tim's trying to step outta the shadow of Costa. He's dad, right? Oh, I'll tell you what he needs to do, he needs to have a facelift. Because he is, he is an absolute replica of his dad. He looks a lot like him. They are identical. He just needs the little, the little rat tail. And you would, you would think it was his dad.

[00:17:47] Wayne: And unbelievably, uh, good boxer. He, he is world class, has to go to Vegas, has to fight, has to fight in the main town. 

[00:17:58] Ayrton: So for someone like, uh, [00:18:00] me, who's not as big 

[00:18:00] Wayne: on the... You can't be fighting on the, you can't be fighting on the gold 

[00:18:03] Ayrton: coast. So I'm not as big into boxing as, as you are. What, what, so he, he's been a, he's been a world champion.

[00:18:08] Ayrton: Um, what, what, there's guys that he would aspire to fighting still. Is that, is that, 

[00:18:13] Wayne: where's he... Yeah, yeah, so I can't think of off the top of my head, but there's a guy that went upper level, got beaten. I do know it. Got beaten recently. He's the number one in that division and that's who Zoo, but he seems to be running a little bit from Zoo.

[00:18:30] Wayne: So understandably and, and Mendoza, he boy, oh boy, what a jaw he's got. That was, that was a ripping fight. Ripping fight. He just, yeah. Some blokes can wear, can timbers wear them, can't they? Tim Zoo just, as the rounds went on, just absolutely pummeled him. And he, he, you know, to his credit, he just, he didn't get knocked down.

[00:18:52] Wayne: Um, stayed sharp. Looked like he could, If the round seven had gone for another 10 seconds, I reckon he would have, uh, knocked him out. But [00:19:00] it just a unbelievable fight by Tim Zoo. So yep, he's world class. He's definitely world class. And like I said, he's got to get over to Vegas and fight in America and that that will elevate him to a superstardom.

[00:19:14] Wayne: You can't, like I said, the Gold Coast, please. It doesn't quite have to say who was sitting in the crowd and got a lot of airtime was Hugo Lagan. Jamara was there, wasn't he? Jamara, he was, he was, oh, he must be going okay. Cause he was, I reckon he was third, third or fourth row. Says a bit about your status.

[00:19:34] Wayne: And I could see, and I could see him. He was on camera a lot. Yeah. A lot. 

[00:19:39] Ayrton: How strategically do you place yourself behind the, the cameras? 

[00:19:43] Wayne: Oh, that depends whether you want to be seen or not. Depends on who you're sitting with. I 

[00:19:47] Ayrton: saw a, I might have, was it Lee Matthews, you know, I don't want to misquote, um, the Great Lethal the other day, but he was talking about how Jamara might get the biggest deal in football history, which I thought was interesting given, um, the conversation we had earlier in the year around [00:20:00] who is, if you're starting a team, who do you draft first?

[00:20:04] Ayrton: Um, who has the most sort of value for the 

[00:20:06] Wayne: future. Well I think for his age and glimpses that he showed, he still has to show the football world that he can do that on a consistent basis. The game's littered with guys that can spasmodically do special things. But can they do it week, after week, after week, after week, quarter, after quarter, after quarter.

[00:20:27] Wayne: So, that's his challenge now is having a massive pre season and then showing us and taking that next step. Because he definitely showed this year, which I said, I would take him before any other young player in the comp, including Nick Dacos, because of the position that he plays and they're harder to come by.

[00:20:45] Wayne: But he has to take that now to a level where we see it more often. And if we say that more often, then you, well how do you, how do you dispute what Lee Matthews says, everything Lee Matthews says makes sense. Or especially 

[00:20:59] Ayrton: when he, when he [00:21:00] repeats what you're saying, so you're pretty happy with that, eh?

[00:21:02] Ayrton: Now, I didn't, I, I, just talking about Jamara and also Simon Goodwin earlier, it just reminded me of something that I had a conversation with a mate on the weekend. So, question without notice here, I haven't prepped you for this. I haven't, we haven't had, I haven't even mentioned it to you in passing. Who, who is, so there are almost two different questions here when we compare Melbourne and the Western Bulldogs.

[00:21:23] Ayrton: Two talented lists. Which coach out of those two, and I know you're made of goodies. Is maybe under the most pressure next year, do you think, in terms of where they sit and who outta those two teams has maybe underachieved more given what they've had in the, you know, they both played in the grand final recently, the one that Melbourne won, 

[00:21:44] Wayne: well, they've finished, Melbourne have finished in the top four, the two years after as well.

[00:21:49] Wayne: So you've given yourself a chance. So I don't see that as a failure even though the two finals, um, we discussed what Steven May said last week. Mm-hmm. I know we've, we've got a few, uh, [00:22:00] There's Some strong feedback about that. Yep. So we'll talk about that a little bit later, but, um, who's under more pressure?

[00:22:07] Wayne: I don't think Goody is, just because they've, you know, they've gone out in straight sets. They're, you know, they clearly need a key forward. They clearly need to, um, uh, fix up their delivery inside Ford 50 and fix up their conversion. So they did a lot right. Melbourne. Okay. I, so I don't think that, you know, and, and they gave themselves another chance at playing in a, in a prelim, in a, in a grand, you know, so they fell short for the, so Luke 

[00:22:36] Ayrton: beverage you're saying, um, is, is there, is there pressure on Luke next year to, to, to deliver not a, not necessarily a premiership, but um, maybe more than what has been delivered 

[00:22:47] Wayne: since made the draft?

[00:22:48] Wayne: I don't like talking about pressure on coaches. But if you want to, I think they're all, they're always under, and the only time you're probably, the only bloke not under extreme pressure is, is McRae [00:23:00] right now. Yeah. I mean, even, even a Chris Scott, you know, missed the final, even if, let's say they, they slide down and miss the finals again, and all of a sudden people say, oh, you need a new voice.

[00:23:12] Wayne: I know he's just signed an extension and I wouldn't get rid of him at all, cause I think he's a ripper. Yeah. But, um, you are. You're going to be under pressure. I can't believe that you're even talking about Simon Goodwin being under pressure because I just think that if you, he's won a premiership and he's finished top four, top four.

[00:23:30] Ayrton: I guess the conversation is around, uh, the conversation that started. They're hard to win. Is, was around the talent of lists 

[00:23:38] Wayne: versus whether. They're so hard to win. I don't mean pressure for losing 

[00:23:42] Ayrton: job, I mean who's going to face the most scrutiny 

[00:23:45] Wayne: in terms of performance. Was Kevin Sheedy under pressure after not getting Essendon to the grand final in 

[00:23:50] Ayrton: 99?

[00:23:52] Ayrton: No, well they hadn't won since 93 at that stage and 

[00:23:56] Wayne: they'd been poor. But they were the best team in 99. Yeah, absolutely. They got to the grand final. [00:24:00] So, the best team, to back up what Stephen May said, the best team doesn't always get to the Grand Final. Hey, the best, the Premiership team is the Premiership team, we know that.

[00:24:11] Wayne: But the 

[00:24:12] Ayrton: game is littered. We might as well give these coaches contracts for life 

[00:24:15] Wayne: then, just leave them there for 30 years. No, no, not at all. The game is littered. If you keep giving yourself an opportunity to play in a Grand Final, that means finishing in the top four, then to me, finishing in the top four is a successful year.

[00:24:31] Wayne: Losing a final by less than a kick, to go into a prelim, I don't consider to be an absolute failure, when you did a lot right. 

[00:24:40] Ayrton: Interesting. I think there's a few fans that might, that might um, think that Melbourne maybe could have got more out of it, but that's alright. You know the 

[00:24:47] Wayne: sliding door moments, you look at the history, Alistair Clarkson, who is regarded as a genius coach.

[00:24:54] Wayne: Yes. Four premierships. Yes. I think he won two or three prelims by less than a kick. [00:25:00] Macrae this year won three finals by what, 14 points or whatever it was. So, you know, Ross Lyon has been up twice in time on in grand finals. And he's not a premiership coach and considered having failed for not having a premiership.

[00:25:17] Wayne: I mean, you know, talking about bounce of the ball, seconds, minutes, um, whether you're a success or a failure, unfortunately, that's how we judge. I don't judge like that. I think if you keep giving your team an opportunity, then that's a successful 

[00:25:36] Ayrton: year. I'm really glad I brought that up cause it's, it's garnered a, um, an animated response from you.

[00:25:42] Ayrton: Um, thanks for your, for your input there, Duck. Uh, I'm just going to get your, uh, your input on a few other. Coaching, uh, conversations or, um, comments that I saw over the weekend. Now these, uh, tickled, well, the first one didn't tickle my fancy. I thought it was ridiculous, but I'm gonna play a bit of 

[00:25:57] Wayne: audio for you.

[00:25:58] Wayne: I was gonna say, what a coach tickled your [00:26:00] fancy . 

[00:26:01] Ayrton: This, this bit of audio is from Michael Pryor, who's coach of the West coast. A 

[00:26:04] Wayne: f l ex SM player. Yes. Yep. And Freeman. Yeah, I think he went. You think he headed west? Only coached. Was he an assistant coach at something? He was an assistant man is a little. He was a red headed fella.

[00:26:15] Wayne: Well, he wasn't that little, was he? No, but... Yeah? Yeah, yeah. Michael Pryor, I remember him. Not the actor. No, he was... No, that's Richard Pryor. 

[00:26:23] Ayrton: Not Richard Pryor. So these are the comments that Michael Pryor made after West Coast's AFL W lost to Melbourne on the weekend. At the end of the day, 

[00:26:33] Wayne: that's um, the team that won the grand final last year against the team that finished last in 18 teams in the comp and only 10 games.

[00:26:43] Wayne: How we play that team is beyond me. That's what you get when you 

[00:26:46] Ayrton: get fixture in like that. He's not being serious. He's not being serious, is he? So he's saying, Duck, he's saying they shouldn't be playing the top team from last year because they're no 

[00:26:58] Wayne: good. They're no good? [00:27:00] Yeah. And they, but didn't, how many teams have they played, played finals last year?

[00:27:03] Wayne: No, no one. None. So this is the first team they've played, they've played finals last year. It's five or 

[00:27:08] Ayrton: six games into the 

[00:27:08] Wayne: season and he's the first team they've played. I'll tell you what, we'll see. Yeah, that's, that's, uh, yeah, that's excuse making. What message does that send? Well, it doesn't send a great message.

[00:27:20] Wayne: And if I'm, you know, if I'm one of his, uh, if I'm one of his girls, I'm sitting there saying, you know, come on, you, that, that's, yeah, your leader, your leader doesn't make excuses like that, unfortunately. And maybe that's why they are Shysenhausen, because that's how he's coaching them. Yeah. I'd be... That's not a good, that's not a good message.

[00:27:42] Wayne: No. You want to play the best to get better, no matter whether you get a flogging or not. Absolutely. You can't improve by playing, um, people around your standard. You have to play better, people better 

[00:27:52] Ayrton: than you. I'd suggest he'll be making some sort of clarification this week when he does his weekly media conference, Michael Pryor.

[00:27:59] Ayrton: I have [00:28:00] said 

[00:28:00] Wayne: though, the 10 round thing is, you know, Mickey Mouse stuff. Yeah. When you've got 18 teams, 10 rounds, it's just not enough. We've already discussed that earlier in the year. 

[00:28:08] Ayrton: Uh. Not, um, quite the same vein here, but I often have these pop up on the various, um, soccer or world game, um, accounts that I follow on social media, and this one was Dorking Wanderer's manager, Mark White.

[00:28:22] Ayrton: They'd just been knocked out of the FA Cup, and he wasn't real happy about it. They deserve to be, 

[00:28:31] Wayne: uh, fully deserve to be in the draw, and hopefully, I really hope, uh, they get something, um, amazing that's life changing. So my fucking shit players can learn a fucking lesson because they were so poor. See, that's, that's honest.

[00:28:52] Wayne: That's, I mean, that's honesty. How's he going when he rocks up to training 

[00:28:56] Ayrton: on Monday night, Tuesday night? 

[00:28:58] Wayne: It's a little bit, [00:29:00] I do get worried, as funny as that is, and it is funny, and I love the brutality of it, and the honesty around it, but it is taking the pressure off. yourself as the coach. I don't like it when, like, just like Pryor did before, I don't like it when you pass all the blame onto your players because they're a reflection of you.

[00:29:20] Wayne: So if they're, as he called, shit, then he's, he's clearly not getting through to them. 

[00:29:27] Ayrton: So, I'm, uh, interested in this maybe from what Dennis might have done. So, I was reading, uh, Sir Alex Ferguson, uh, the other day, a part of his book saying he'd often, um, come out in public and be, he'd defend his players to the hilt.

[00:29:42] Ayrton: Even if he thought they'd been terrible and he'd bake them behind closed doors. Yep, that was what 

[00:29:46] Wayne: Dennis did a lot. 

[00:29:47] Ayrton: Yeah, so he might be saying something completely different in public to what he's saying behind closed doors. 

[00:29:52] Wayne: Yes, correct. And I think that's what a good coach does. You know, I, you know, I think Clarkson takes a leaf out of that [00:30:00] book.

[00:30:00] Wayne: I think a lot of, I think a lot of coaches do the same thing and that's how it should be done. I don't think you should berate, uh, players, which is why I love the documentary about David Beckham and the way that the English coach at the time that threw him under the bus and basically blamed him for losing, even though it went to a penalty shootout in the world cup.

[00:30:19] Wayne: So Glenn Hoddle, 

[00:30:20] Ayrton: I think it was 

[00:30:21] Wayne: so, I mean, I, that was horrendous for me to park the blame. Well, yeah, you got sent off, but you still went into a penalty shootout. Yeah. That's got nothing to do with having one less man on the ground. So for me, that was really bad. And I love that about Sir Alex Ferguson, who, you know, clearly, clearly, and what we forget is guys like Pago and Mick Moldhouse and these guys, and Clarke O, they're very well read about world.

[00:30:53] Wayne: And they used to, I know that Dennis has read a lot of coaching books from, you know, coaches from all different, [00:31:00] uh, codes. And they pick up things like how certain coaches go about it and, and they do, they replicate it. And I, I, I'm a big advocate for that. I don't think you should belittle your players.

[00:31:11] Wayne: But, very funny, by the way, I do like when I hear it. 

[00:31:13] Ayrton: It was, it was funny. Uh, this one, uh, I've just got one more for you. Uh, this is unusual preparation has gone into this week's episode, but I just saw these. This was Graham Alexander, MK Dons, so also over in England. And his team had just conceded two goals in injury time to, to get a draw.

[00:31:29] Ayrton: He came out with a few. He's understated, but I just saw, I just smiled when I had a listen. 

[00:31:35] Wayne: We do every single day and then go and do it in a game. That's, that's where it is. That's where it is. That's... I, uh, yeah. Well, I can't say I'm lost for words because I've talked. That should be three points in the bag.

[00:31:48] Wayne: Without a shadow of a doubt. Um... But we have unbelievable ways of shooting ourselves. In the foot. There's 

[00:31:57] Ayrton: two parts to that that I like. The first one, [00:32:00] I can't say I'm, I can't say I'm speechless because I've, because I've talked. I've lost for words because I've talked. And then the next one, we just have, um, so many ways of shooting ourselves.

[00:32:09] Ayrton: And then this long, in the foot. 

[00:32:11] Wayne: Graeme, come on. Just that last guy, you did, you did mention, so Dorking Wanderers, that's their 

[00:32:17] Ayrton: name. Yeah, Dorking. D O R K I N G, Wanderers, 

[00:32:21] Wayne: Dorking

[00:32:25] Ayrton: Wanderers. Yeah, I don't know too much about the Wanderers, but um, yeah. No, so anyway, slightly different tone to, um, to the part of this week's episode, but I just thought they were, they were quite interesting. Um, have you, have you... 

[00:32:39] Wayne: Yes. No, what were you going to say? No, I was, I was going to say... Um, got Danielle Laidley, uh, coming up who we've, uh, well, we've said we've got her coming up, uh, for a number of weeks now, but we have spoken to Danielle.

[00:32:53] Wayne: Yeah. And, uh, we don't. So she's 

[00:32:56] Ayrton: done a lot of media, but you've done this, you, you feel like you've done this differently. 

[00:32:59] Wayne: Well, [00:33:00] we don't delve in. So I watched, I watched her documentary before I had a chat to her and I, I didn't want to talk about, you know, all the legal, um, stuff and, you know, the, the, the police stuff and you know, the charges and all, all of the different things that, uh, what, what I was fascinated with, given that I used to be a teammate.

[00:33:19] Wayne: Um, was one, how she, how she felt back then, um, you know, the, the, I guess the mask and the shield that we spoke about that, you know, a lot of sports people have it like how she sort of got through that time. So don't delve into all the, all the stuff that everyone already knows, but more, more around sort of our relationship.

[00:33:41] Wayne: And then, um, you know, she's now become also an ambassador for Lifeline. Which I do a little bit, uh, around, uh, the mental health stage with the GBS and, uh, Good Blokes Society. Yeah, Good Blokes Society with a heap of different charities around that. But, you know, sort of getting through, [00:34:00] you know, those periods.

[00:34:01] Wayne: And, and just for, you know, the, there's people out there going, Oh, why are you supporting, you know, this and that? And it's like, you know what? There are a lot of people out there that have made mistakes in their life and then for that, for making those mistakes, they, they spend a lot of their time beating themselves up and they go through a really tough time.

[00:34:22] Wayne: And clearly Danielle, um, has, has done that along with dealing with what she was living with inside herself, not being who she really wanted to be. So going through that mental. Um, pain that she's gone through and then, you know, getting through to where she's got through now and selling that message with Lifeline and everything else, I think it's really good.

[00:34:44] Wayne: So, uh, tune in and have a listen. Looking forward to that. 

[00:34:48] Ayrton: How have you, have you seen, I mean, you obviously knew, you knew, um, to a degree, this is what you're going to speak with Danielle about. You knew to a degree that, um, yeah, Danielle, but how [00:35:00] have you seen the transition now? Does it, does it shock you now or do you, do you 

[00:35:03] Wayne: feel, no, no, no.

[00:35:05] Wayne: I, I, you, you'd be lying if, you know, the first time you see a teammate and you know, they've, they've transitioned, you know, at, at, at, I'd be like, I said, of course. It's like, oh, you know, I never, I never thought that. Yeah. Um, so, you know, you'd be kidding yourself if you said it wasn't a shock when we first heard that, you know, that's who Danielle, um, or Dean wanted to be and, and.

[00:35:35] Wayne: the power to her. And when I say the power to her, it's because you, we want, we as humans want, um, people we know and even people we don't know. And you look at what's going on around in the world, the world at the moment. I mean, you know, you just want people to be happy, don't you? People to get along end of the day where we are all human and, um, you know, [00:36:00] so when I see, uh, a

[00:36:05] Wayne: much happier person than when I saw her as a teammate. Yeah. Okay. That's really, that's interesting. So that's why, um, yeah, that's why it puts a smile on you. That puts a smile on your face and you know, he's, she's obviously very, very happy. Well, we 

[00:36:21] Ayrton: look forward to that one. So that'll be coming out later this week.

[00:36:23] Ayrton: Your chat with Daniel lately has been done. So no more delays. This will be, yes, it's, uh, it is coming out. So, um, we'll move on now to our, to our listener questions and we're getting them a bit early cause we've got a whole lot of feedback, um, duck this week on two episodes we did last week. So a weekly, normal weekly one where we chat about everything.

[00:36:41] Ayrton: And also you, you trade one, got some great feedback, uh, about your move, um, to the crows. Um, Um, just gonna, uh, just gonna start on you, Stephen May, um, which you, you, you went, you know, you, you liked what Stephen May had to say last week. This is from, uh, from Joseph, [00:37:00] uh, Stephen May, you went out in straight sets two years running.

[00:37:03] Ayrton: You're not even better than Carlton. Some pretty, some pretty strong feedback from Joseph 

[00:37:07] Wayne: there on. Yeah, I don't, well, yeah, well Joseph has got his opinion so it's right to him. 

[00:37:13] Ayrton: This is from Brett, Stephen May every time that bloke gets on the booze and opens his mouth he embarrasses himself. Collingwood beat Melbourne in the games that mattered and we're the best team all year.

[00:37:21] Ayrton: Melbourne out in straight sets two years in a row and obvious cultural issues within the club. 

[00:37:27] Wayne: Oh, he's gone down that line. Yeah. Oh look, there's no doubt they've got work to do and if you believe half of what you hear and half of what you see, then yeah, they've clearly, there's no doubt that Melbourne would be disappointed with what happened to them.

[00:37:45] Wayne: Do I disagree with Stephen May? As I've said before, I actually don't. Disagree, and I like when players, even if you have had a couple of sherbets before you say it. Um, you know, I [00:38:00] just like that honesty, that he thinks that they were the best team. And, why shouldn't he think that? This 

[00:38:06] Ayrton: is from Antok. How can they be the better team duck?

[00:38:08] Ayrton: It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. They ended up fourth on the ladder, lost in straight sets two years in a row. Yes, lost to the Pies and Carlton. Pies won the minor premiership and the grand final. Stephen May is delusional, very much salty. 

[00:38:22] Wayne: Yeah, delusional is a strong word. When you get beaten by less than a kick and you beat, you did beat Collingwood, they did beat Collingwood during the 

[00:38:31] Ayrton: year.

[00:38:31] Ayrton: Just on Clayton Oliver, there was, uh, this was before, so this is from Peter. This is before the latest news from Clayton came out. We spoke about the trade scenario last week. On the Clayton Oliver side show, I'm sure he's on a long term contract only entered into last year for seven years. Yes, contracts aren't what they used to be.

[00:38:48] Ayrton: It's simply steam rising. He was upset with the decision to play overridden by the medical staff. As you said, watch this space in 2024 in terms of Clayton's response. Now, since then, you know, he's had another issue. [00:39:00] It's going to be one that Melbourne have to manage really, really delicately, isn't it?

[00:39:04] Wayne: Well, it is. Well, it is, clearly. If you read through the lines, and it's not hard to, even on Melbourne's statement, if you look at their statement, they made it quite clear there are some issues that Clayton is working through. But I tell you what, the blokes still won four BNFs and he's their best player when he gets it right.

[00:39:25] Wayne: So, if he, if he can, you know, pull himself out of this, Uh, scenario that he's in right now and knuckle down and have a great pre season, like I said, I have no doubt. He, he, he would be a very good little wager for the Brownlow. 

[00:39:43] Ayrton: I've just got, this is a bit off track here, I've just got this bloke from iSelect, he keeps ringing me, you know what iSelect is, it's, the other day I, I got an, uh, completely off topic this, I got an email from my electric, uh, electricity company saying that they were gonna, they were boosting my rates, they were gonna make it more expensive, [00:40:00] and so I went on to iSelect and compared my rates.

[00:40:03] Ayrton: They've been ringing me non stop for, there's got to be a limit, there's got to be a limit on this. How many times can the company ring you before, before they, they get the hint that you're not going to answer the phone? Yeah. Uh, anyway, anyway, bit off topic, bit off topic that one. Um, Duck, picking teams, you had a crack at me last week, um.

[00:40:22] Ayrton: You said, oh, you'd be, you know, I was talking about Manchester United, oh, you'd be, you know, you've gone for Essendon when they're good, Manchester United. This is from, uh, Virginius Maximus on, uh, Twitter. It's funny having Duck accuse Ayrton of being a wanker for supporting the best team at the time. If it weren't for him making North Melbourne good in the 90s, I wouldn't have picked them as a kid.

[00:40:41] Ayrton: Too bad. Too bad they've been the worst performing team since 2000. 

[00:40:46] Wayne: Uh, it is there. Yeah. And I, and I've got a, I, okay. I, I, I went for Parramatta, the Parramatta Eels in the eighties when they won three in a row, because they were the gun team that I'm talking about when [00:41:00] you're a kid, if you're a kid. You are seduced by the better teams at that time.

[00:41:05] Wayne: Yeah, some kids just pick the You know the underdog and they and then you stick you've got to stick with them all the way through what I was talking about Is Anson here? He picks him when he's an adult And he jumps and he jumps ship with them when they become good. So You have an excuse as a kid, but not not when you're an adult 

[00:41:26] Ayrton: Uh, free agency compo we spoke about last week.

[00:41:28] Ayrton: This is from Heath. The compensation works as part of the equalization strategy. It stops free agents leaving teams near the bottom to play with the clubs at the top and they get robbed of their best players. Any player will want to play finals over a team in last place, for example. It's a good idea to keep the compensation.

[00:41:46] Ayrton: So we were saying we could maybe phase it out, but... Yeah. Um, so that was Heath. Uh, this is just on your comment about the culture of clubs. So this is from Caleb Crypto. Hey Anton and Dwayne. Took the D from Duck and put it at the front of Wayne because I know how [00:42:00] much he loves the name. Love the show guys, thanks for doing it every week.

[00:42:03] Ayrton: So true about how people make a club great. As Wayne said, all they want is for the players to say hello to them, say hello to them. Just makes them feel like their time spent at the club is worthwhile. If they feel a part of the club, they'll do more for you. And that was sort of part of your message last week, wasn't it?

[00:42:17] Ayrton: Yeah. In terms of how you deal with the people at the club. Harley Reid. The picks offered by North, uh, are a joke. So they were, at this stage, it was a whole lot of late teens pick. West Coast should take him, and Sam McClure should be sacked for making up stories about him not wanting to go to Perth. He's a clown.

[00:42:34] Ayrton: Well, I, sorry Sam, for throwing you under the bus there. If you're West Coast with Harley Reid, if he's this generational player, you, surely you, you just, you, you keep him, you keep the pick one and you 

[00:42:46] Wayne: take him. Well if he's that, if he's... If he's, if he's that good, by the way, I don't, has there been more fanfare or have I just forgotten about him than other number one picks in 

[00:42:55] Ayrton: other years?

[00:42:56] Ayrton: I think there's been, I think there's definitely been more for Harley and maybe because of, you know, [00:43:00] the style of player 

[00:43:00] Wayne: he is. And because, do you think because two West Coast and North were, you know, duking it out down the bottom for that pick? And, 

[00:43:08] Ayrton: and because West Coast have said they need more than one.

[00:43:11] Ayrton: Well put 

[00:43:11] Wayne: it this way, if he's, let's say he's a Chris Judd type player, then you're crazy. if you're West Coast not to take him, and they only got Christian later. Um, the other part of it though is if he is adamant and his family is adamant that he doesn't want to go to Perth and he's only going to go over there and do his time and then come back, if they did pick him, then...

[00:43:36] Wayne: Um, you know, and it is worth negotiating, but you're not, you're not giving up the farm for just the number one pick. I mean, North Melbourne got, you know, really good picks. You're not giving up two top 10 picks for one. I'm not anyway. 

[00:43:50] Ayrton: So you'd say North, North need to fill so many gaps. So 

[00:43:54] Wayne: you're saying just look at all, look, look at the history, look at all the number two, number three, number four draft picks that have become [00:44:00] superstars.

[00:44:00] Ayrton: Yep. Uh, Duck, we spoke about your, um, your trade, um, so you're in Vegas, and then, so if you haven't listened to that, go and have a listen to that, um, this is from tkinv9750, hats off to the king, I just re watched the first episode, so that was one, you won with Dennis. Um, no hero like Duck, but have caught up on the, been caught up in the popular narratives, not close to the truth.

[00:44:24] Ayrton: So you set the record straight on a few things last week and I feel like at times that's sort of been Cleansing for you a little bit like a it was it you left with maybe a different sort of feeling last week in terms of 

[00:44:37] Wayne: No, it's just something that I haven't said in this type of forum. I've mentioned it a little bit in a couple of corporate Um, gigs that I've done about, you know, when people ask how I ended up there, but what we might do, um, coming up, cause I know you've had a few people ask you personally, um, about what it was like to play against North for the [00:45:00] first time when I went to Adelaide and, and the build up to that game.

[00:45:05] Wayne: So we might, we might, um, we might do a show next week or we might do an added little. about, you know, just to build up to that and then, um, you know, just the emotions around that and everything else. Yeah. 

[00:45:17] Ayrton: Well, I've got two messages here. One from Brendan saying, you know, I feel like that'd be the great next step if ducks willing to do that.

[00:45:23] Ayrton: And then hot key success. Wayne, can you explain, the episode, Wayne, can you explain why the Roos didn't target you hard in the 2003 game against the crows? Were they afraid of you? Were they your friends? No one except. Archer and Stevo really went at you, so hold fire on that, that, that's one to, um, Uh, just one more on, on last week's episode.

[00:45:44] Ayrton: Uh, why no cool names left? Uh, that's the Twitter handle. Probably at a time Brisbane, Port and Collingwood had more talent, but thought if Andrew McLeod's knees hadn't gone by the end of O2, things could have been more interesting. The Crows pre season being too running oriented. Probably didn't help [00:46:00] either.

[00:46:00] Wayne: We agreed and we do forget that I am a Premiership player for the Crows. Night Premiership.

[00:46:11] Wayne: You're not claiming the night. I won, I won, I've won two day, three night. Although you always say dermies, five day, five night. So say duck two day, three night. So 2003, by the way, I kicked the two goals against Collingwood in that final late in the game to. Probably win it for us. Um, but so I am a premiership player for the crows When did when did the I forgot about 

[00:46:38] Ayrton: that the night grand?

[00:46:39] Ayrton: So i'm fascinated by this because 

[00:46:41] Wayne: ever since actually that was that that's when Teams still tried to win those. 

[00:46:45] Ayrton: Yeah Well, that's what I was going to ask because when in recent memory people who've watched only the last 15 years would say Well, no one's cared about the pre season comp when when did teams care because the five time 

[00:46:56] Wayne: We cared.

[00:46:57] Wayne: We cared right through because we needed the [00:47:00] prize money, , , uh, and some of the prize money went to our footy trips as well. So we cared a lot, . Um, but, you know, thanks for reminding me about, uh, 2003. 'cause we, yeah, we won the, uh, we won the night Grand final. Did you give it a bit more than Lenny Hayes and Grant Thomas did that against Collingwood?

[00:47:19] Wayne: Well, I wasn't the captain, so I didn't, I didn't, uh, hold the, the 

[00:47:23] Ayrton: team often 

[00:47:24] Wayne: comes around for the, I remember, I remember, I, I. We're in, we're in a little bit of trouble, the crow's late, took a mark, 58. Went back and kicked it and, uh, yeah, 

[00:47:35] Ayrton: we won. Uh, now we've got, uh, we've got a special guest coming up. Justin Lepich, uh, who of course has just played a huge, uh, role in Collingwood's Premiership as an assistant.

[00:47:46] Ayrton: He's also, of course, been at Richmond during their flag years. Great to talk to Lepa about 

[00:47:50] Wayne: his career. Yeah, he's had a lot, well, he's, he's done a lot, hasn't he, Lepa? He's, he's coached, he's assistant coached, uh, Premiership teams. He's now involved at Collingwood. They've won a Premiership. So [00:48:00] he got a little bit of Neil Balm about him.

[00:48:02] Wayne: Leper. 

[00:48:04] Ayrton: Magic touch. So just for our, just for our listeners so they know, so later on this week we're going to have an episode coming out. Leper will be early next week and then, cause you're away, you're going 

[00:48:13] Wayne: overseas. I'm away, yes. I'm, I'm going overseas, so this episode that we normally do on a Monday will, will come during the week next week.

[00:48:22] Wayne: It won't land on Monday. 

[00:48:24] Ayrton: Alright, well look out for that. Great to talk to you again on the Truth Hurts, Duck, and plenty happening in the next week.